New Succession Game Spoiler Thread

[-Jrabbit]

yep.

Here's my save. I'll post the log tomorrow morning.

Basically, we have a whole lot of cities, just built Hanging Gardens, working on Myst. Barbs have been a problem, but huts have been a boon.

[-Jrabbit]

OK, city count is 12. It just seems like more...

[La Fayette]

Main events:
2050: Monarchy (disc. and est.)
1700: Currency
1400: Trade
1150: MapMaking
1050: Marco Polo(all maps traded)

Situation:
9 cities (+1 to be founded next turn at (196,80)).

[atomant]

Just waiting for the rabbits log to vote, but discussions on logs/saves todate?

Pro-cons of each would be welcome

[Peaster]

All the saves look good: All have cities + settlers = 13 or more (good), monarchy+trade (good), few port cities (not good, but improvable), and 4/5 saves have a WoW (good).

Atomant: Has the highest city + settler total of 12 + 6 = 18, but we cannot build many more cities without HG. Has the most gold (108). No wonders, and tech seems a little behind. Production = 28 shields/turn (low).

Grigor: IMO you should finish your 1000BC turn before we vote. Your save will probably be similar to mine though.

JRabbit: City+S total = 12 + 1 = 13, and few roads, but this is the only save with HG (good). Tech includes writing, but not hr/poly/maps. Production = 45s/t (good).

LaFayette: Fewest cities (9) but has 5 S's and good roads. Has MPE, maps + good tech including poly and 30% progress to writing. Production = 31s/t (low).

Peaster: City + S = 12 + 4 =16 and OK roads. Has MPE + maps + tech including poly + myst + 25% progess to pots. Production = 51s/t (high).

I have not decided which I like the best, but am looking mostly at JR's and mine right now. I think the next goals will be

*Both MPE + HG within 10-15 turns.
*About 15 cities w decent ports, roads and prod'n.
*A few triremes w ellies, settlers or vans aboard
*LH within 15-20 turns.

[-Jrabbit]

-Jrabbit Log

OK, so let me start by suggesting that we reduce the number of turns in the next round. Here's (roughly) where this version of things stands:

2500 -- Warrior in SSC
2450 -- northern NONE settler finds gems
2400 -- Arbela settler; heads south (city disbands)
2350 -- Discover Code Of Laws select Monarchy. at 11 turns, 2050 looks difficult.
2250 -- Hut yield adv. tribe of Gordium
2200 -- Susa kicks out a settler; barb archers appear. Bactra founded.
2150 -- Now 100,000.
2100 -- Archer dies but new replacement barbs appear to south. Phalanx rushed in Pasagardae.
2050 -- Elephant tips hut, kills barb horse. City of Sidon founded on handy silk.
1900 -- Monarchy discovered; Pottery is next. Last barb archer dies at Susa. Revolution!
1850 -- Xerxes promoted to Shah. We take a barb king for 150 GP.
1800 -- City of Tyre is founded. Hut yields adv. tribe of Sardis.
1750 -- Samaria is founded. That's 11 cities.
1600 -- Our scientists figure out how to make Pottery; our new goal is Currency.
1550 -- Toynbee's Dubious world History declares us Most Powerful.
1450 -- Hut nets 50 GP. We are trying to conserve our riches for rushed camels...
1400 -- Multiple barb horses near Gordium.
1350 -- Sardis disbands; settler looks for viable spot. Currency invented; Trade is next.
1300 -- Two huts yield 50 GP, Trade!!!
1250 -- Choose Writing for rushbuys on that 3rd row...
1150 -- 1st 4 camels complete and converging. Northern continent found.
1050 -- Establish city of Ergili; discover adv. tribe of Hamadan. (I can't rmember EVER getting so many adv. tribes...)
1000 -- We discover the technology called Writing and select Mysticism next. The build is completed for Hanging Gardens to come online next turn. Hut yields Warrior Code (guess we didn't need writing yet after all...)

We now have 12 cities, about 50 bucks in the bank IIRC, some nice white techs, and a settler or two on the board. I've neglected roads for the most part.

This looks like a continent we can really establish a powerbase from. Lots of potential city sites out there.

Several additional camels have been started for our next WoW (or perhaps to establish a trade base). We need boats, which were bypassed for trade and pottery.

Sorry for the delay in posting. RL has a way of interfering sometimes...

[-Jrabbit]

Overall, my goals were to ensure HG, create tech leadership, explore and expand. Mission mostly accomplished.

--HG is ours.
--Techs have begun to appear in white letters.
--We have enough unencumbered space on this continent to create about 2 dozen viable cities.
--There's more land to the north we can explore.

The more I play this, the more I like the idea of delaying MPE as long as possible, even if it means stashing 4 camels as a hedge against AI WoW-switching. In fact, once those are stashed, I try to build LH. The greater our tech lead, the more we can trade for. The longer we wait, the more the other civs will have mapped for us.

The semi-constant barbs forced me to produce more defenders than I normally employ vs. the AI, but at that point I was just trying to preserve beakers in a vain attempt to match the (very impressive) 2050 switch to monarchy. Still not sure how that was done -- I could not find the beakers anywhere!

Obviously, if my game is chosen, we have to get Maps before we can build MPE. So that's about 10-12 turns away. I don't think there's much risk there, since the AI typically builds Pyr first in these situations, but it's something to consider.

I'll try to look at SAVs tonight. Looking forward to some RCC of my save if anyone has time.

[atomant]

I like the rabbits save at the moment, with HG tilting things in that direction as well as high production (golf clap). That being said, perhaps a few more settlers can be cranked out to build cities and roads. I can't remember seeing the elephant though in JR's save.

The other save I really like this turn was Peasters. start of good road infrastructure and high(est) production balanced with reasonable cities, plus potentials. I do not see the true value of MPE this early in the game.

The only redeeming factor about my save is cities plus settlers. Perhaps changing settlers to camels and rushing HG once the techs are in place? I can't remember if I have pottery, but it should come from a hut sooner or later. Also, I think once the happiness is sorted, science should kick in with my game.

[Peaster]

JR - You asked for RCC? Heh heh heh....

There are several things I like about your save, but it also has some problems:

1) Your two northern cities are making temples. You do not need temples with HG, and especially you don't need them in cities that are not growing.

2) You are researching mysticism, when we really need mapmaking (or maybe horse/poly). It will take about 18 turns to get mm from your save, unless we gamble with huts. But if we gamble, it may make things worse (2/3 tech rule). Mysticism may be useful LATER, to help us towards philosophy.

3) You are making lots of vans, but we have no use for them until we have mapmaking for triremes/LH/MPE. I don't like the idea of making vans to let them sit. We need those shields now - probably for settlers [since boats and ellies are not possible]. Some productions we can change to settlers, but not if that will disband the city.

4) Warrior Code wasn't your fault, but I don't like having it. We must give it to the 6 AIs eventually, which can then research feudalism and make pikemen. This could set us back hundreds of years.

5) We need to send out boats to the AI pretty soon, but we do not have mm, and your save has no northern port city. Nor is there a spare settler up there, or even one in production. This could add years to our conquest.

I have read your posts about delaying MPE, low-tech, trading, isolationism, fundy, etc ... but I don't see how these fit into a clear plan. In fact, you can't have low-tech AND fundy. You can't have isolation AND trade. I have strong doubts that these ideas would lead to victory before 1500AD.

Experience shows that early conquest requires sending out boats towards the AI ASAP. Usually that means mapmaking and MPE and LH. It is reasonable to aim for a pre - 1000 AD victory in this game if we adopt a fairly normal time-tested strategy:

A) Send out a pair of triremes from a north - eastern port city within about 10-15 turns. LH should be done within 15 turns. Load them with vet ellies and/or settlers, and aim them for Greece, because it is far away. We know where Greece is, if we have MPE.

B) Do the same for Russia [or the Babs] from a western port. Include at least one settler for Russia, since the AI map does not show a coastal target.

C) Repeat this for the other civs, possibly combining some nearby civs to reduce our total effort.

D) These boats should all arrive within 20 turns of departure, even on this large map. It's probably still a BC year. We have quit research and settling, and have raised taxes.

E) Next, it will take approx another 10-15 turns to conquer the civs. This will involve coastal attacks and/or rush-building from colonies. Our coffers grow during this period from tribute and victories. Now, it's about 400AD.

F) The rest is cleaning up the re-starts, which may take a few hundred years. I'd be shocked if we finish after 1000AD.

Do you doubt this plan? With bad luck, we may lose some boats at sea, or find an AI city is size 7 with walls and pikemen etc... but Grigor, La Fayette and I have all used this plan, and know that it usually works before 500AD. [Check the recent Apolyton or CFC tournaments and the previous Sxn game].

[-Jrabbit]

Good points for the most part.

--Yeah, i was upset when I got teh archers, but whattya do?
--Lack of food in the north is an issue. Those temps-in-progress could become barracks.
--Myst was an error; should have taken the horsie. Poly not yet offered. Old habits die hard.
--Obviously, the camels in progress can become settlers.
--It's hard to anticipate the need for a northern port when you don't know the map. there's one loose sett from a disbanded AdvTr, but I wasn't prescient enough to know that he needed to go north. mea culpa.
--The settler could make it to the north (east) shore Wheat in about 5 turns IIRC (btw, that's where the ellie is) to create a port city.
--My thought was to be high-tech/isolationist until MPE was needed, then convert to a cash economy and produce troops like mad.
--The trade reference was to intramural 2-continent trade, NOT with the AI.

I make no claims to being an early conquest specialist. I've never had less than crooks when making my world move, and know that some have done it with vet legions.

the fact that you, Grigor, and laFayette all use the same plan is semi-compelling. I just think that it's a blind stab at the familiar that does not take advantage of this game's custom rules. That's certainly not to say it wouldn't work.

Agreeing on a strategic approach is highly desirable. With a little better direction, I think my SAV would offer some advantages, but this may be mediated by (primarily) the Myst choice. I consider the temps and camels to be entirely fixable and not a big drawback.

[La Fayette]

I am convinced that the Grigor/Peaster/LF way is the best for early victory (otherwise I wouldn't have chosen it ).
But I guess it would be fun to use Atomant's or JR's save, just for a change.

[Peaster]

OK with me.

[atomant]

Okay chaps, call to vote then? Vote with name of save to use. Votes to be in by mid day wednesday GMT.

Next game set will be 20 turns.

[atomant]

For learning I am voting for the rabbits save.

[Grigor]

I vote for Peaster's save. His is the only one to have a well developed northern production center which might be capable of a wonder as well as fighting units.

I sympathize with atomants desire to play a new style, and I might also vote for Rabbit's flawed save - except that in addition to Peasters RCC points above, his HG is in the wrong city and he has several cities on silk, which is left over from his 2x production games. In single production, a city on silk is very slow to get to 5 production at size 2, and can't keep up the settler cranking.

My save is off tech path and my cities are in crummy places.