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**Peaster** · February 25, 2005, 10:00

Grigor - It sounds like our turnsets were pretty similar, but I haven't looked at your save yet. Maybe Atomant will clear up the rules for using MPE. For comparison, the rules I assumed were -

* You have to contact every AI on the turn you get MPE, and try to give or trade away all your techs to every tribe. You can do this in any order you want.

* If the AI says good-bye before you finish, you try again next turn. You can do normal things, like trading maps or demanding tribute, as long as you don't intentionally avoid tech gifts.

* You have to finish your 1000BC turn [I was in the same situation as you!] including the MPE part.

* If you are at war, I am not sure what Atomant had in mind [this didn't happen in my game]. I guess if the AI won't talk to you for some reason, you are off the hook. But we shouldn't get into wars to avoid giving tech, and should probably be nice during the MPE turn, at least. For example, I gave away tech whenever an AI demanded it.

**-Jrabbit** · February 25, 2005, 10:46

Originally posted by Peaster
But we shouldn't get into wars to avoid giving tech, and should probably be nice during the MPE turn, at least.

Peaster, I totally disagree with you. The whole point of custom rulesets is to create new strategies. If being at war or having a despicable reputation allows us a turn or two advantage with a key tech vs a couple civs, I think we should exploit that! I very much doubt that atomant expected us to win at bloodlust without being the aggressor. Being smart about when to be aggressive -- like just before a key tech comes online -- is just logical.

If a civ refuses to talk and it allows me to build some bombers to send over his capital, that's a good thing. IMHO, the reason I can't gift that tech -- whether I've been demanding tribute every turn, or I started a war, or the AI just "decided" -- is immaterial.

This is a bloodlust game, and I expect to be at war much of the time. And I saw nothing in atomant's rules about being "nice" or gentlemanly...

**Grigor** · February 25, 2005, 11:30

Ah, the RCC heats up! I basically agree with JRabbit about the rush to Demo and soft Fundy. If the rules are that MGE requires gifting all civs immediately, then it may be a big mistake and somebody should do a turnset which doesn't go there. One note - we must give techs to the AI, but we don't have to take any from them. Our tech cost will be help down by keeping a tech disadvantage in techs we consider meaningless, llike Masonry.

I wasn't sure about the rule, but the reasons I went to MPE were: (1) I thought it would save several turns by getting techs like Map Making and Pottery from the AI (2) it seemed like the best way at the time. Research is really slooooooow on this map, and I could only get one of the four techs I wanted after Trade this turnset (HB, Poly, Map Making, Pottery).

An alternate plan might be:
-- Research to Trade ASAP
-- Build 4 caravans while researching Map Making
-- Build Lighthouse

By the way, it seems that Lighthouse is a real priority, and Magellan's will be helpful if we can get it.

**-Jrabbit** · February 25, 2005, 12:03

totally agree on Magellan's

**-Jrabbit** · February 25, 2005, 12:07

In the mid-game, I think a low Science setting and two-continent trading is our best approach to technology. It will keep the AI from getting ahead and keep our coffers full.

I think I'll avoid MGE on my turnset, just so we'll have an alternative.

I would love to see a little more discussion on some of the other points I raised.

**Peaster** · February 25, 2005, 13:12

JR - I think the idea of a best-ball game is being abused a little here. You should not read the spoiler thread until you have played the turnset yourself.

About gratuitous wars - I guess Atomant and/or the other players should decide this. I am suggesting we follow the spirit of his rule by being as generous with our tech as the AI allows.

About MPE (aka MGE) - I think we need the AI maps, tech, and possible tribute soon, so I do not regret MPE. Giving away tech is rarely a problem anyway, though I'd prefer not to give them certain things, like pikemen.

Tech - Except for the missing pottery, I am happy with the results of my MPE. Maybe not the Wheel, but we get to skip HBR. I think this will be a slightly long game [like 800-1000AD], but it is very rare to get as far as Navigation in an EC game, and I can't remember EVER seeing Demo or Fundy in one. How can we get those techs in a reasonable time frame? I expect you are right about needing LH (but how do you know, without seeing the AI maps from MPE or building triremes first?)

**Grigor** · February 25, 2005, 14:02

I would build LH because of prior experience with gigamap conquest games. Even if there is only one continent, it saves many turns. And as you said in your own Early Conquest Guide (I Paraphrase)

Build LH if it saves as few as two turns.

As to other JRabbit suggestions:

But even if we decide we want MPE, why not build camels-in-waiting for it and get another early WOW like HG or LH first?

Sounds good.

If we are going to go forward with MPE, I then must wonder about the value of a SSC, since there's no possibility of taking a tech lead... In fact, it might make sense to set the science slider to zero after we get a few key early WoWs.

There is a good SSC site, labelled SSC, but it is up to each of us to decide how to use it. I think it will be useful, and I made an effort to build it up, but not a big one because the rush to get Monarchy by 2050 and then to get Trade ASAP had me working the wine hill. A SSC will be good for trading if you can find another continent.

--Upgrades through Invention/Leo's is a potentially huge advantage in this game.

Agreed. Besides, Leo's is fun.

--Conversely, the Library will be worthless, since everyone will have all techs anyway (assuming MPE).

And the Library isn't useless anyway??

--STWA is a must. If we're all going to have the same units, best that ours be vets, eh? (Timing will be critical on this.)

Well, that depends. If we get Feudalism, everybody will, and we won't be able to conquer very well without a superabuindance of crooks, or perhaps dragoons, by which time everybody will have gunpowder, which means Cavalry against Riflemen... OTOH, if an AI gets feudalism first, we may be up the same creek.

**-Jrabbit** · February 25, 2005, 14:51

Sorry about reading this thread guys, I just wanted to get your attention, since there was so little chat last week. If it offends i'll gladly sit out this round. (I figured there would be "spoiler" code to hide anything significant. It's not like the logs carry much detail.)

Peaster, I've never seen a conquest-with-reset, on a gigamap, finish by 1000ad. In fact, I doubt if I've seen one end before 1500. Early units just cant move far enough, fast enough.

The map is BIG, and transportation is critical. This almost always means multiple shipchains. Just my experience talking. I have absolutely no knowlege of the actual map we're on. If it's all land, then we would want to substitute RRs for ships; the principle is the same.

I expect it will get to cavalry & cannon, but I know I'm not nearly the early conqueror that some here are.

Anyway, I will play and post this weekend.

**Peaster** · February 25, 2005, 20:05

JR - I am not offended, and hope you will post.

I didn't notice your 8AM post, because I posted at almost the same time, and got bumped here to page 2. In response -

* I don't think the gigamap will change our strategy TOO much. IIRC it is 200x100, which means the farthest AI is about 20 turns away by trireme+LH. That's maybe 5 turns more than on normal/large maps. The re-starts will take longer to chase down, too, but we're only talking a few hundred extra years IMHO. And the best-ball aspect may completely cancel this handicap.

*So, I am still skeptical that we will have time for Navigation, Invention, Feudalism, Monotheism and Fundy. Maybe 1-2 of these is possible if we keep the science bar high, or perform SlowThinker-type miracles with trade routes. I'd prefer Mono+Nav among these.

*I think building 4-5 distant colonies with one barracks
each will work as well as STWA. Normally, I like STWA on a large map, but I don't like AI's with Feudalism, because pikemen are strong against crusaders. If an AI gets Feudalism first, I'd agree about STWA.

*I agree that LH is a good idea about 75% of the time (probably even more often on a gigamap), but there are plenty of maps where triremes can quickly island-hop to anywhere they need to go. I hesitate to say more until everyone has seen this game map (ie, the AI maps).

I don't think building LH before MPE is a bad idea in this game, but hunting for the AI without MPE maps could take a long time, so we want MPE (with its other benefits) pretty soon. I wanted HG before MPE, but couldn't do it.

*With balanced techs, WoW's will be important, but our biggest advantage will be our intelligence. Humans can take advantage of most tech advantages better than the AI. Exceptions would be defensive ones like Feudalism or Gunpowder.

*I agree that posts about strategy, like the ones today, make the game more fun. Please understand that I don't claim to know all the answers, and I welcome other opinions. Sorry if that didn't come through.

*Grigor, your comment about Leo's was really stupid (just kidding, guys!!). But seriously... we have seen it tried a few times and know it has drawbacks - it removes a unit's veteran status, and getting Invention takes some extra time. I don't mind trying it though, and chose the Wheel (among duller options) with that in mind.

**atomant** · February 25, 2005, 21:58

Originally posted by Peaster
JR - I am not offended, and hope you will post.

I didn't notice your 8AM post, because I posted at almost the same time, and got bumped here to page 2. In response -

* I don't think the gigamap will change our strategy TOO much. IIRC it is 200x100, which means the farthest AI is about 20 turns away by trireme+LH. That's maybe 5 turns more than on normal/large maps. The re-starts will take longer to chase down, too, but we're only talking a few hundred extra years IMHO. And the best-ball aspect may completely cancel this handicap.

*So, I am still skeptical that we will have time for Navigation, Invention, Feudalism, Monotheism and Fundy. Maybe 1-2 of these is possible if we keep the science bar high, or perform SlowThinker-type miracles with trade routes. I'd prefer Mono+Nav among these.

*I think building 4-5 distant colonies with one barracks
each will work as well as STWA. Normally, I like STWA on a large map, but I don't like AI's with Feudalism, because pikemen are strong against crusaders. If an AI gets Feudalism first, I'd agree about STWA.

*I agree that LH is a good idea about 75% of the time (probably even more often on a gigamap), but there are plenty of maps where triremes can quickly island-hop to anywhere they need to go. I hesitate to say more until everyone has seen this game map (ie, the AI maps).

I don't think building LH before MPE is a bad idea in this game, but hunting for the AI without MPE maps could take a long time, so we want MPE (with its other benefits) pretty soon. I wanted HG before MPE, but couldn't do it.

*With balanced techs, WoW's will be important, but our biggest advantage will be our intelligence. Humans can take advantage of most tech advantages better than the AI. Exceptions would be defensive ones like Feudalism or Gunpowder.

*I agree that posts about strategy, like the ones today, make the game more fun. Please understand that I don't claim to know all the answers, and I welcome other opinions. Sorry if that didn't come through.

*Grigor, your comment about Leo's was really stupid (just kidding, guys!!). But seriously... we have seen it tried a few times and know it has drawbacks - it removes a unit's veteran status, and getting Invention takes some extra time. I don't mind trying it though, and chose the Wheel (among duller options) with that in mind.

Right, so many questions, so little time....

1) The only caveat other than the normal succession game rules is that techs must be given to all opposing sides on discovery. If you are at war, you must contact them and offer it to them. If they refuse to talk, try again next turn I guess. There is nothing to stop you bombing someone into snail snot even whilst you are gifting them. That depends on your individual strategy.

2) Remember this is a better ball approach. If your strategy wants one wonder over another, so be it. I have my own style of play, and I will be gearing my wonder production to Leo's, STWA, Economics and Demo.

3) The rules are simple gentlemen. technolgies must be given on discovery. Everything else is fair game. Reputation does not matter.

My turn sets will be posted Sunday. I did read the sets posted, but I am deliberately playing my own strategy.

**atomant** · February 25, 2005, 22:05

Originally posted by -Jrabbit
Hmm, I look at these logs and must admit to a bit of WTF. Seems like we need to agree upon a strategy before this goes too much further. This is tech-neutral bloodlust, with restarts. So let me ramble with some commentary at this point...

Obviously, with no real differentiation in the tech race, the greatest advantages in this game will lie in getting the right WoWs.

Maybe I'm being a bit dense, but I don't understand the rush to MPE. The longer we wait to build it, the more the map area to be revealed. After we've gifted everyone, additional map requests will be difficult to get.

Another possibility would be to blow off MPE entirely. This would limit required gifting to the civs we have met. On a gigamap, you can build a pretty big civ before meeting more than one or two others. (And the world is so big, it does make sense to get map trades, thus maybe MPE is OK.) Consider: It might do us more good to get our embassies with the late-game WoW after MPE expires.

I'm suggesting that an isolationist policy, celebration growth, and a rush to soft fundy might be a better course of action.

But even if we decide we want MPE, why not build camels-in-waiting for it and get another early WOW like HG or LH first?

If we are going to go forward with MPE, I then must wonder about the value of a SSC, since there's no possibility of taking a tech lead... In fact, it might make sense to set the science slider to zero after we get a few key early WoWs.

Speaking of which, notes on another couple WoWs --
--Upgrades through Invention/Leo's is a potentially huge advantage in this game.
--Conversely, the Library will be worthless, since everyone will have all techs anyway (assuming MPE).
--STWA is a must. If we're all going to have the same units, best that ours be vets, eh? (Timing will be critical on this.)

Let's see some commentary on these random thoughts so my session will be informed by our agreed-upon goals...

1) Agree with wonders outlook, it will be the key. Strategy though will be up to the individual. May the best non-gender specific individual win.

2) I wont be going for MPE either. slows down the tech race whilst we have no contact, which is again another advantage for us. If, for exmaple we can get to mono without giving it to anyone else, we could build lots of crucx, then go on a voyage of conquest (i mean discovery and global enlightenment...... then conquest. Obviously give them the techs and (to quote my other post) grind them into snail snot.

**atomant** · February 25, 2005, 23:36

2500BC: With Trepidation press enter key after looking at cities and changing workers to suit.
2450BC: SSC builds warrior, change production to settlers. Starting warrior exploring city radius. Move settler to start building road from P-GARDE to SSC. Antioch builds warriors, change to settlers.
2350: Discover CoL, start on MONARCHY
2250 Disband ARABELA, None settler creates city (NORTHERN OUTPOS) ARABELA none settler moves towards river to south.
2150: Barbs attack SUSA. Attack repeled
2100: SUSA builds settlers. Elephant pops hut, discover CURRENCY.
2050: Found city of BACTRA
1950: Pop hut, advanced city of SIDON discovered
1900: Civil disorder in SSC, create elvi.
1850: Discover MONARCHY, start researching TRADE. As ODE year, change government immediately.
1800: Ele (we are on a first name basis now) pops hut, discover HORSEBACK RIDING
1750: P-GARDE builds settlers, continues building settlers
1700: SSC builds settlers. City of TYRE north of SUSA founded, city name changed to MAG WHEEL. BACTRA builds warrior, change to settlers.
1650 P-POLIS builds city. Elephant pops hut. Advanced tribe SARDIS
1600 Civil disorder in SUSA, make elvi
1400: Civil disorder in ANTIOCH, make elvi
1350: SAMARIA founded, linked with roads to home cities. Barbs sighted near SUSA
1300: TRADE discovered, start POLYTHESIM. Unrest in P-GARDE. Elvi created.
1250: SUSA repels barbs. NORTHERN OUTPOS build settlers.,
1200: SSC builds settlers, civil disorder in BACTRA, elvi built.
1150: Change to horsemen in MAG WHEEL, rush build for barb threat and leader pursuit.
1100: HAMADAN built. SAMARIA builds warriors, starts settlers. MAGWHEEL Horsemen kills barbs and leader. MAGWHEEL changes from horsemen to warriors
1050: SUSA builds settlers. Warrior pops hut, finds 25 gold
1000: Civil disorder in SUSA, change from settlers to warriors.

Turn Summary

Cities Created: Six. (eleven total cities)
Settlers active: four, nine in production.
Technologies discovered: five.

Goals for next turn set from my perspective, continue building cities, linked with roads, start building caravans to rush build selected wonders. Biggest threats, maintaining happiness.

Attached Files

ant_xe_b1000.sav (150.7 KB, 37 views)

**atomant** · February 27, 2005, 19:12

Post now or forever hold your peace!!!!!

Wanted that for my +1

**-Jrabbit** · February 28, 2005, 00:03

been busy.
hope to post before i crash tonight/

**atomant** · February 28, 2005, 01:54

Originally posted by -Jrabbit
been busy.
hope to post before i crash tonight/

Usual friday night?

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