Hildays Civ 2 Tournament - Russians (spoiler)

[SlowThinker]

overview:

Monarchy - 2250 BC
Trade - 1750 BC

MPE - 1600BC
HG - 500 BC
Lighthouse - 225BC

1st expedition sent - 1250 BC
1st caravan delivered - 850 BC
1st civ attacked - 175 BC

Color scheme: wonders and improvements, technologies (important techs only). important moments, cities, caravans D-demanded, xD-undemanded Added comments are italic
4000	Moscow founded (#1), taxes 60% trick with a settler in the Capitol of size 1 I hesitated between founding 2 cities immediately and the Trick. I judged both ways are similar and I chose Trick because it is a trick. Later I realized that capitol would be better placed more south-east due to corruption and waste and so 2 immediate cities might be better
3500	Bronze Working (next tech 22 beakers) Moscow builds settler
3450	St. Petersb, Kiev (#2, #3) founded
3350	Moscow builds warrior
3200	St. Petersb builds warrior
3100	Alphabet (next 33b)
3200	Moscow + Kiev build Settler
2850	Minsk (#4) founded Mongols contacted Mongols: peace, they want Alph for Warrior code, refused
2750	science 60%
2700	shall I risk to trade techs? My thinking was: Mongols are militaristic, so I looked to rules.txt, Bronze working has a very high value for Mongols...I thought they probably would have it... but I had BW already! I cannot understand what I thought about. Fortunately they had Cer Burial. Good luck wins over a bad play. Due to this trade I got MPE faster by about 5 turns, and so I guess I got game end faster by about 3-4 turns. Mongols trade for Cer Burial (have also Warr code) plan: Monarchy in 2250
2650	Smolensk (#5) founded
2550	Code of Laws
2400	OdessaSpice (#6) founded
2350	Mongols: uncooperative, tech given, still uncooperative
2250	Monarchy (next 72), instant revolution, Monarchy, science 70% plan: Trade in about 11 turns Mongols: tried if they want to swap techs, they don't; Monarchy given, neutral hut: nomad I dared to grab hut at Karakorum inspite of a risk of a bad tech. Unfortunately nomad cannot be used for a city: I decided to go straight to Trade (without an anti-barb tech like Horse riding) and I have to keep 7 cities only.
2150	Sevastopol (#7) founded
2100	sneak attack by Mongols, warrior lost. Fortunately both mountains are under my control already. I think I was little bit lucky that they didn't attack sooner, I am not very experienced with Mongols and I didn't suppose Mongols would be bad so early (I gave them 3 techs before the sneak attack; I play with Civ2 FW)
2000	Currency
1850	Mongols pay 100g for cease fire, neutral
1750	Trade (next 104); taxes 70%
1700	Mongols: currency given
1600	Moscow builds Marco Polo English: peace, Map Making, Pottery, Horse, Writing (Trade, Monarchy given) Babs: maps Vikings: peace, The Wheel, maps Persians: Masonry, maps Spanish: peace, maps (tech cost is 252, I need to get over 300 to raise caravan revenue) Big error: I perceived that Sevastopol (a supposed SuperTrade city) won't be able to celebrate (neither at size 4). Change of plans - St Petersburg must be STC, it switches to Granary and loses shields. Grr, Sevastopol is on stupid no-shield position now. St Petersburg had a Settler rehomed to. Settler have been irrigating a bad square... plans: give techs to Mongols, then finish some techs: Polytheism, then destroy Mongols and so raise caravan cost (I supposed restarts are off; therefore I blithely gave techs to Mongols) Spanish are my closest oversea trading partner; Seville demands hides, but only Odessa supplies it, I need more cities with Hides Also Karakorum demands hides - but demand is low and I would have to build a STC on an Island Later I thought I should build such a 'reserve STC' for safety reasons. Hides disappeared in Seville, fortunately Madrid got them too.
1550	English: maps

 

[SlowThinker]

1500	Vikings destroyed one Spanish city. I must help them at the first opportunity Tbilisi founded (#8); I hoped for hides (hides are wildcard for that square), but it is in demand; anti-barb bonus ends with 8th city, little bit risky now, horses not prepared yet) Mongols: Map Making given Moscow builds barracks
1450	also Smolensk supplies hides, 2 cities in total
1400	Mongols pay 50g for peace first horse (veteran ), I am safe from barbs
1300	hut - nomads
1250	Sverdlovsk (#9) founded 5 cities supply hides; I didn't take time to find out what caused these changes Spanish - maps, Viking chariots in Spain, I should help them with defense. 1st expedition sent (one Settler to west)
1200	sneak attack by Mongols
1150	Spanish: vet Phalanx given, gratefully acccpeted, but it stays in my city ...?? Mongol Settler destroyed (it hindered Russian nomad to get home)
1100	hut: 25g
1050	2nd expedition sent (one Settler to England)
950	Error: I re-read the 'Study of hut outcomes' and found the distance-12 rule for tribes and realized I should add a hut-poping unit to my western expedition.
925	NearVikings (#10) founded on 1-sized Island with a good food: a base to produce next Settlers
875	my settler (sailing to England) is waiting at canal position (67,31). If hides in Sevilla ends next turn a canal will be created.
850	first caravan delivered: hides (D 201) to Seville hides demand in Sevilla stays, therefore Settler continues to England (but I should send another Settler to the canal position soon for safety reasons)
825	Polytheism (next costs 270); next I will color imporant techs only hides (D 205) to Seville
800	hut: Construction Vikings: tried to trade for Literacy, but they want Masonry or Polytheism only now I realized babylon may be reached by north...(continent 1 is there)
775	Granary in St. Petersburg (this is the STC, size 4 soon) Spanish: trade for Warrior code (to up science cap of caravan deliveries; but it allows Feudalism from a hut)
725	3rd expedition sent: one settler to Babylon by The Northern Route (the Settler was NONE but rehomed before the journey - because of nomads from huts) hides (D 226) to Seville Mongols pay 50g for cease fire
700	Mysticism (next 360) Spanish: trade for Literacy hides (D ?) to Seville; demand of Hides stopped, we need a canal
675	hut: 50g
625	hut: nomads; hut: barbs NearPerpsep (#11) founded (all NearCapital cities will build Barracks;I forgot SunTzu, but cost is similar)
600	NovgoCanal (#12) founded (on the shipchain route to Spain)
550	Spanish: Iron Working (620b next ) hut: Engineering silk (D 420) to Seville
525	my ship at Spain survived a barb attack
500	Mathematics Hanging Gardens in St. Petersburg (I need it, St. Peters reached size 5) 2x hides (D 2x400) to Madrid some unneeded rushbuys caused by a gleefulness of gold NearLondon (#13) founded
475	Philosophy, Monotheism (next 768) 2x hides (D 2x400) to Madrid hut: barbs (my last hut; I was going for Tribes, but I realized tipping huts is stupid because of risk of Feudalism) Continent1 (#14) founded
450	Republic ; stopping to log new techs Temple in St. Petersburg giving Republic to AIs, especially to Spanish NearTrondheim (#15) founded hides (D 400) to Madrid
425	food caravans start to be delivered to St. Petersburg, size 5 now, 3 caravans needed to get size 8
400	hides (D 448) to Madrid shipchain to Madrid completed Docks1 (#16) founded
375	hides (D 528) to Madrid NearUr (#17) founded Mongols pay 50g for peace
350	hides (D 554) to Madrid Docks2 (#18) founded (both Docks not needed, support of triremes would be managed with existing cities too)
325	Babylonians steal Engineering. I was scared when I noticed a Bab dip entering the city. May AI bribe a city if in peace and Enthusiastic? hides (D 560) to Madrid
300	NearMadrid (#18) founded, caravan deliveries will be smooth silver (D 594) to Seville 2x hides (D 2x560) to Madrid
275	London builds Pyramids 3x hides (D 3x560) to Madrid
250	Petersburg builds Aqueduct (I don't know what to do with gold, anyway I should rather build Colossus) 3x hides (D 3x560) to Madrid preparing to attack, babs have a new city, argh...
225	Lighthouse sneak attack by Mongols, horsemen destroyed 2x hides (D 2x560) to Madrid Investigating cities: London 3 defs, maybe 4th (chariot nearby) in 2 turns, building Colossus Persep 3 defenders, posible renforcements in Susa, building GL Trondheim 3 defs, posible renforcement phalanx east, building Market
200	hides (D 576) to Madrid
175	wars start: London captured, Pyramids, I got 350g for cease fire VikingCanal founded (there is a possible respawn area south of Vikings) Persepolis captured, Susa bribed for 128, Antioch bribed for 128, Arbela bribed for 186 bab horse bribed 3x hides (D 3x576) to Madrid Karakorum destroyed NorthPole, Kuibyshev founded (to fill empty area against respawns there) I restarted to grab hut from this point (I can get Feudalism now); no logged
150	2x hides (D 2x576) to Madrid Pasargadae destroyed, Persians anihilated, no respawn Samarkand captured, Mongols anihilated, no respawn Trondheim captured, Kaupang bribed for 248, Hladir bribed for 180, Vikings anihilated, Germans respawned (at dist 13 from nearest city) Ur razed,. Nineveh bribed for 139, Babylon is a capital!! In SoG PBEM I have Ur as the capital... I probably didn't look carefully. Nottingham bribed for 185, Hastings for 265, York for 106, Canterbury for 159, English anihilated, no respawn Madrid investigated, 3 defenders, catapult finished next turn
125	Madrid captured, Seville bribed for 292, Cordoba for 268, Spanish anihilated, Aztecs respawned (at dist 14 from nearest city). Babylon captured, Babs anihilated, no respawn My prospects to finish in 25 BC: I have a 75% chance to get to Aztecs in 50BC (2 crusaders are moving there, they will step on forest in 2nd move) and attack in 25 BC. Situation with Germans is little bit unclear: I do not see all the terrain around but it is mostly forest. Shipchains with Crusaders from Madrid and VikingCanal go there, but a success will depend on movement of Germans. Grr. I played not very carefully now. I should look where land/ocean is before Crusaders landed south of Vikings. Also Shipchain from Madrid was not prepared ideally and I forgot to move 2nd crusader to Madrid... (fortunately Aztecs were finished last, not Germans)
75	a thrilling moment - if one of my 2 crusaders goes on forest by 2nd step then I can destroy Aztecs in 25 BC. First one manages it! But there is a hindering Aztec Settler there... moreover the 2nd crusader doesn't manage to step on the forest tile... No chance to win 25BC since there is a defender in Tenochtitlan. Germans - unlucky with Crusadrer step on forest - situation is little bit unclear here - there are 3 German units and 4 Russian crusaders.
50	Aztec Settler was killed Germans anihilated, French respawned but just besides. One crusader lost when attacking French Settler on Mountains, but 2nd crusader is succesful - French anihilated, no respawn Magnitogorsk founded, barb horse bribed, dye (D 256) to Madrid
25	Uralsk, Kazan, Vologda, Murmansk, Vitebsk founded - to fill respawn areas
1AD	Aztecs anihilated, no respawn

 

[Peaster]

ST - Fantastic strategy and a great game! This will certainly change the way we think about EC. I would definitely be interested in more saves, since I seem to learn faster from those than logs.

[solo]

ST,

A brilliant strategy, making great use of trade and of this game's lack of restrictions! It seems that in any kind of contest, the best results are due to making the most out of trading opportunities. Only 3 respawns was fortunate, but had there been more I think you would have handled them just as quickly. I think your 200 BC save would be of great interest of you would care to post it.

It might be interesting in a future game to prohibit city bribes and to see if trade can be used to boost income and subsequent production of attackers through rushbuying.

One question. If rehoming had been prohibited, do you think you would you have made enough from trade to afford all of those bribes?

[Zenon]

Ingenious strategy and an impressive game! Congratulations!

Zenon

[SlowThinker]

2150 BC: next turn Mongols will sneak attack first time

[SlowThinker]

400 BC: shipchain to Spain completed

[SlowThinker]

200 BC: I will attack next turn

I have saves of all turns - tell me if you want more and I will put them on my web.

[solo]

I've looked over the final save and see ST also managed some impressive production with over 30 triremes and also over 30 crusaders. I will have to give more emphasis to trade in the next game we play.

2150 was of some interest, but it is 200 BC or thereabouts that would interest me more.

Well, Zenon, what are you doing to beat ST's great EC date?

[SlowThinker]

Concerning respawns - maybe I would have no respawns if I filled all empty areas by cities? I did it somewhere (North Pole, islands east from Spain) but I wasn't consistent.

Originally posted by solo
One question. If rehoming had been prohibited, do you think you would you have made enough from trade to afford all of those bribes?

1. Bribing wasn't so expensive, rushbuys of units were probably more expensive.
2. I think I could omit bribing, use combat units only and be 5 turns slower. But support of units (in one base per civilization only) might be a problem and a small army may fail. But with Great Wall you could attack slowly and with small armies.
3. Without caravan rehoming you must home your STC on a hides spot (wildcard) or you must grow more cities (maybe with a help of Republic). It delays, but I think not so much.
It would be good to know more about hides theory, I think samson's formulas aren't completely correct.

Originally posted by SlowThinker
Mongols trade for Cer Burial
...
Due to this trade I got MPE faster by about 5 turns, and so I guess I got game end faster by about 3-4 turns.

Surprisingly the profit from Cer Burial is even smaller. I gained 33 beakers and I produced about 15 beakers per turn when Trade was discovered.
From other side I would lose about 100 beakers (1 tech) if Mongols had bad techs only and also I would delay Monarchy.
So I think it is clear it was better not to trade techs.

[solo]

ST,

When I was helping Samson test his formulas, most needed minor adjustments, including the ones that deal with hides. There still may be small errors or minor factors not taken into account. However, it still amazes me how complex many of the formulae were, and that it was possible for anyone to decipher them.

[Zenon]

Originally posted by solo
Well, Zenon, what are you doing to beat ST's great EC date?

Thanks for the question, I had a miserable start and just finished my game in 520 AD. But even with a great start I doubt anyone would have come close to 1 AD with conventional conquest.

I will post my log tomorrow.

Zenon

[SlowThinker]

I noticed Peaster and solo were slower with cities in the beginning - and I see their cities are placed sparsely. Why do you do that?

[solo]

My plan was fewer cities, but to have each one placed in a very good location. This is the only reason mine were spaced out more than usual.

[Peaster]

ST - Sparse? I made 14 cities on the home island as soon as I could. I think you were a couple of turns ahead of me in making cities until you quit. Maybe from the trick, or from better placements. Also, my first exploring warrior was killed by a barb. That may have slowed me down a turn or two.

Since I don't understand trade very well, it will take me a while to really understand your game. Does your strategy work well on a continental map?

Also, since I have MGE, I wonder if it works with a more hostile AI. I guess you could make your colonies a little farther from the capitols for safety and it would still work. I assume it would not affect trade.

Maybe I should get 2.42. Is it easy put both on one computer? I assume I'd have to re-install civ2 in a new folder and then dl a patch for it?