Non-graphics mods for TOT Red Front Redux

[curtsibling]

ToT gives 20 extra unit slots -
Giving a lot of options for unit expansion or special unit-triggered events...

[Harry Tuttle]

@Agricola: Well in your response I would deem that you would like a better responsive AI to any sort of avenue of attack all along the theatre. You could employ an event system, like we had talked in Fairline's Red Front update thread, that would respond to chokepoint cities being taken all along the front. I don't think that this would be a hard undertaking, given that we already have Nemo's events to cut and paste from.

Regarding Kursk being in 43', regardless of the strategic situation, do you think this would be necessary, given my inklings about your intentions? I'm all for historical fact, but I doubt the German High Command would commit resources to the area if indeed the bulk of the attack along the front is situated to the far north.

Again, it depends on how much you want to alter. I am always available to work.

[Leonidas]

Originally posted by N35t0r


No it won't. You'd still need to use up the slot in order to have the units, even if they're not availiable to build.

Heheh

I realized that almost as soon as I posted it, but I was up all night last night and I needed to get to bed

Still, I hope this scenario is done in the spirit that Nemo wanted it done - as a war scenario. Hopefully we can close many if not most of those gamey loopholes

Cheers!

[Leonidas]

I think that we may have some missed communications here. I would certainly want Kursk in the summer of '43 and my only concern is that it won't accomplish anything. If developed correctly, Soviet front line cities should be almost impregnable by this time and be able to deal with anything that the Germans can throw at them. In the RF 1.5 save you can see that no German ground unit can reach any of the cities along the Don without getting stuck and becoming a sitting duck for Howies in the cities.

AGRICOLA:

We should remember that not all players will have the same skill in playing this scenario.

And I think where there is a will, there is a way around anything.

Perhaps the Kursk event could be beefed up: More German armour; they could be given the abiity to attack cities without the "wall" penalty. Spawn German tank busting Stukas; Lots of German infantry with beefed-up stats, etc.

With the talent here, I am sure we could come up with something to give even the most experienced player some headaches - heheh

[techumseh]

A few ideas:

a) If lend lease is going to consist of allied units, then these could be added: Hurricane, P-39 Airacobra, Grant tank, Sherman tank. While most tanks and aircraft were Soviet made, most trucks were American made, so motorized infantry should be on US trucks (if they're not already).

b) Soviets used sea transport to evacuate the Baltic, and launched at least one major amphibious assault in the Black Sea. They launched a couple of modern "Kirov" class heavy cruisers during the war as well. If this is to be simulated, a way will have to be found to keep ocean going ships out of the rivers.

c) Avoid trying to recreate great battles that took place years into the war. They were the result of specific military situations. You could schedule the arrival of all the Kursk units on both sides at the historical place and time, and find that your front line is 200km farther west. Better to just create the historical reinforcements in time for them to get to the front, wherever that might be.

d) Masks using city control as flags is the best way to determine where new reinforcements should arrive. That way the scenario can "read" where the front line is. I'd be willing to advise on this if it's desired.

[AGRICOLA]

Apologies to everyone for some fuzzy thinking on my part about the ’43 Kursk operation. Does the following, based on Harry Tuttle’s and techumseh’s latest posts, make sense?

1. Suppose that we consider Kursk to be a generic term for the German response to the first Soviet ground offensive towards the west rather than an event that takes place in ‘43.

2. The location of the Soviet offensive is unknown and will depend on a player's preferences.

3. There are, however, constraints on when it can take place. Buildup of Soviet strength is much slower in RF 1.5 than in RF 1.4 so that in my game, at the beginning of summer ’43, the Soviets had but handful of units that could be spared for minor offensive action. Soviet industry was turning out approximately 15 attack units per month. It was not until Nov ’43 that gradually increasing industrial production had allowed the amassing of a total of ~120 Katyushas, T-34’s and Howies, enough for a major offensive.

4. So, if we assume
- that the Soviet offensive gets rolling at some time from very late summer ’43 to early summer ’44
- that the German response does not come until the summer of ’44 (German forces are at too much of a disadvantage in winter)
- that there would need to be 5 or 6 “trigger” or chokepoint cities to cover the entire front

can EVENTS for summer ’44 spawn German units in the vicinity of one or more of the cities that have been captured by the Soviets?

Also, if several trigger cities have been captured by the Soviets by the beginning of summer '44 and the Germans have the strength to attack only one is there a way to prioritize where they should attack?


Of course, the above would not preclude the spawning of significant German units during summer ’43 in order to keep up the pressure on the Soviets.

[AGRICOLA]

@techumseh

a) If lend lease is going to consist of allied units, then these could be added: Hurricane, P-39 Airacobra, Grant tank, Sherman tank. While most tanks and aircraft were Soviet made, most trucks were American made, so motorized infantry should be on US trucks (if they're not already).

Lend-lease consists of Armored Infantry, a pretty good defensive unit with D=8, and Valentine tanks that are upgraded to Shermans in '43. The tanks are useful although too weak to use against the Germans.

The Soviets don't really need more fighter aircraft than the ones they manage to save in '41. Colwyn has carefully balanced the scen so that a/c play a much smaller role than they do in most WW2 scens. It might be best not to risk upsetting the balance.

Soviets used sea transport to evacuate the Baltic, and launched at least one major amphibious assault in the Black Sea.

Do you have any details? I'm curious because I've only read about a small amphib op in the defence of Crimea.

They launched a couple of modern "Kirov" class heavy cruisers during the war as well. If this is to be simulated, a way will have to be found to keep ocean going ships out of the rivers.

Interesting, do you have any details as to where they manged to build the cruisers? Batumi?

c) Avoid trying to recreate great battles that took place years into the war. They were the result of specific military situations. You could schedule the arrival of all the Kursk units on both sides at the historical place and time, and find that your front line is 200km farther west. Better to just create the historical reinforcements in time for them to get to the front, wherever that might be.

d) Masks using city control as flags is the best way to determine where new reinforcements should arrive. That way the scenario can "read" where the front line is. I'd be willing to advise on this if it's desired.

Excellent advice. My previous post is based on your and Harry's suggestions.

[fairline]

Originally posted by techumseh
A few ideas:

a) If lend lease is going to consist of allied units, then these could be added: Hurricane, P-39 Airacobra, Grant tank, Sherman tank. While most tanks and aircraft were Soviet made, most trucks were American made, so motorized infantry should be on US trucks (if they're not already).

/tank geek mode/
Numbers of lend-lease tanks sent to Russia:

Valentine Mk. III/IV/IX/XI: 3782
Matilda Mk II: 1084
Churchill: 301
M3 Lee/Grant: 1386
M3 Stuart: 1676
Sherman 75: 2007
Sherman 76: 2095

a small number of other tanks (Tetrarch, Cromwell, Patton, Chaffee, M5) were also sent. Britain sent 14% (!) of it's tank production to the USSR, with 1388 of the Valentines coming from Canada.

The Soviets favourites were the Valentine and the Sherman. They hated the M3 Lee so much they nicknamed it 'coffin for 7 brothers'. Basically Colwyn has it about right: Valentines for the early part of the War and Shermans for the latter part.

As far as recreating the decisive battles goes, I think we should give it a go. Stalingrad is relatively easy to choreograph as the AI always gets to Rostov by '42. Kursk is a much thornier issue. Harry's idea to trigger the event with the recapture of Kursk by the USSR has promise, but both sides need to be given reinforcements to recreate the battle; it was after all a defeat for the Germans because the Russians knew they were planning the flank attacks and had massively reinforced the salient.

Regarding Colwyn's v1.5, I think it's a mistake to limit the Russian buildup in '43; production was in full swing and they were churning out materiel like there was no tomorrow. Far batter to strengthen the AI to limit the Russian onslaught IMHO.

[fairline]

Field Marshal Klesh has agreed to take on the role of event/scn file modification

FMK is already working on events changes, which will require thorough playtesting. Any takers?

[curtsibling]

I think Poly's top playtester is present on this thread!

Mr AGRICOLA?

PS
I will make the time to try it out too!

[curtsibling]

Time for me to show some geekiness too!
The dug-in Soviets at the Kursk battle had the heaviest concentrated defences ever seen in WW2...

It's up to the developers if they want to reflect this, as the AI never does what you want it to do!

[AGRICOLA]

Great news about FMK. He is an expert on RF 1.4.

Have TOT. Will playtest anything, anyplace, anytime.

Originally posted by fairline
Regarding Colwyn's v1.5, I think it's a mistake to limit the Russian buildup in '43; production was in full swing and they were churning out materiel like there was no tomorrow. Far batter to strengthen the AI to limit the Russian onslaught IMHO.

When playing RF 1.5, I was extremely aware of the need to develop Soviet industry and managed to have 116 refugees at the start of the Dec '41 turn. Most of these were used immediately to increase the size of the smaller Soviet cities. After that it took roughly 18 months of high priority effort to develop the food supply and build the industry needed for a city to produce >30 shields per turn. The production levels that I have quoted for '43 really are about the best that can be expected in RF 1.5.

From what you write, I think that you would like to bring back some form of Supply Convoy as a way to speed up Soviet industrial development and unit production. IIRC, initially there is one SC spawned each month and the reward for delivery to Baku is nearly 2,000,000 rubles. Without chaining freighters there is some risk that Lucky Louie’s freighter load of 4 SC will get through to Murmansk while Larry the Loser’s will be sunk somewhere north of Hammerfest, thereby putting Larry squarely behind the 8-ball for the rest of the game. If you are considering this, perhaps most of the SC should come in through the safe Persian Gulf route (Ashkhabad) and only the odd one from UK.

Originally posted by fairline
As far as recreating the decisive battles goes, I think we should give it a go. Stalingrad is relatively easy to choreograph as the AI always gets to Rostov by '42. Kursk is a much thornier issue. Harry's idea to trigger the event with the recapture of Kursk by the USSR has promise, but both sides need to be given reinforcements to recreate the battle; it was after all a defeat for the Germans because the Russians knew they were planning the flank attacks and had massively reinforced the salient.

I agree that there is no problem with setting up Stalingrad because the Soviets absolutely HAVE to fight. Conversely, Kursk is a major problem because the Soviet player may opt NOT to fight. My first reaction to your suggestion was how could I get the Soviet units safely back to Voronezh. Kursk sounds like the kind of fight that I would try avoid at all costs: a summertime slugfest out in the open between Soviet and equal or better German units, with the Luftwaffe holding a decided advantage over the Soviet AF. Furthermore, I would judge the Kursk area to be of little military significance because it has no road network (after major pillaging in ’41) and it is not on the road to Berlin.

On the other hand, if you are suggesting setting it up as a turkey shoot, with Soviet units behind minefields and Germans out in the open, then I’m all for it.

[klesh]

Greetings.

As you just read above, I have accepted Fairline's invitation to lead the events and scenario modification of RF-TOT. I have been out of the loop for some time now, and let me say I spent a terribly enjoyable saturday learning all about the 'MGE on steroids' that is TOT. This really is a better version of civ! I will need the help of the community and some dedicated playtesters to see if these changes are indeed working to better the overall game.


Firstly, let me say that the individual events files for RF-MGE are in the order of 19kb. Nemo has each file virtually maxed out leaving no room for additions. ToT's events files can be significantly larger.... and I mean Sigfnificantly (capital S). This really allows for nearly anything we want added to be put in, and in a fully fleshed out way, not halfarsed.


What I would like to develop in this thread is a working list of prospective 'majour events' that happened on the Eastern Front, and see how many of them we could put into this game. From this list I can develop what new units can be added that will reflect certain historical niceties.

I have already completed new versions of a few of the majour events that were in RF-MGE, as well as creating a few new ones. The list is as follows:

• Opeartion Typhoon- Battle for Moscow
• Crimea Invasion
• Army Group A into Caucasus
• Army Groub B into Stalingrad both summer/winter events
• Opeartion Citadelle- Battle for Kursk
• Operation Spring Awakening- Lake Balaton, Hungary

In the events files that those go into, there still is PLENTY of room for various and sundry other things. Techumseh, you have always spoken the truth... ToT really is a godsend.

I want to develop more ideas like the above for majour events that took place in the war. I will find ways to work them in gamewise. Hopefully those ways test out okay and do the job. I have more ideas, but will hold them off for now to see what you gentlemen can come up with. I mean anything, lemme hear it. There is events room enough for all, really.

I have some ToT-specific game mechanics questions that I think are best left to a thread of their own.

I also need to know if we are using RF-MGE 1.4 or 1.5 as a basis for this?

[curtsibling]

Great to see you on board, FMK!

This is really a development dream-team!

[CapTVK]

Originally posted by fairline

As far as recreating the decisive battles goes, I think we should give it a go. Stalingrad is relatively easy to choreograph as the AI always gets to Rostov by '42. Kursk is a much thornier issue. Harry's idea to trigger the event with the recapture of Kursk by the USSR has promise, but both sides need to be given reinforcements to recreate the battle; it was after all a defeat for the Germans because the Russians knew they were planning the flank attacks and had massively reinforced the salient.

While I'm also in favour of re-enacting as many decisive battles as possible I wouldn't want it to come at the expense of the general flow of the battle. Leningrad, Moscow and Stalingrad? Most certainly yes, but trying to micromanage and shoehorning the AI into a historical replay at Kursk while there's a whole front to consider is silly. Besides how accurate is history?

When Russian archives were opened during the 90's WW2 historians gained some new insights .The most important being that Russian generals tended to overplay German losses and they certainly did at Kursk. That Kursk is known as the world's largest tank battle is more or less correct but it was mostly Russian tanks/vehicles doing the burning. German actual losses were comparatively light. In that sense it wasn't a defeat for the Germans at all, more a stalemate with significant losses for USSR forces.

In short. Don't lose yourself in micromanaging a specific event, take care of the whole front. If we really want to replay Kursk we can always make a new scenario.


/crazy ideas mode: on/

How to use those extra units slots in ToT: joker units

Not sure if this has been tried before but could we make some german units identical to others but that trigger different events? That's already done in RF. But what if we create a 2nd set of identical units that would create a different surprise event?
Let's say this joker unit is a German Hedgehog v2 that creates a group of SS mountain commandos in the Caucasus when destroyed. There would only be a few of those units scattered around but enough to keep you on your toes. They would be rare but when you take on a hedgehog you have to ask yourself the question: "Is this a regular or a joker?"

A different perspective on supplies: The great underground ocean railroad

The general consensus is that RF Redux should be a single map. I'm inclined to a single map as well. An underground map would complicate things. But I'm crazy ideas mode now so hear me out. It's a different look on how to introduce long term effects of strategic choices.

What if we create an underground map that has three narrow long ocean tunnels going eastwards. One comes out behind Leningrad, one somewhere behind Moscow and one somewhere in the Caucasus. Meanwhile, back west we have one city filled with freight, high def/att land units etc... BUT we only have one ship with a limited capacity, movement and it is going to take at least 6 turns to reach the end of a tunnel. You can't build new freighters either, that tech has been removed. What's the best choice?

/crazy ideas mode: off/