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**rah** · October 25, 2004, 16:43

Nice to see some qualitative measurements for something that was generally used though judgement.
(knowing if you were strong enough and asked frequently enough you could empty their treasury)

What if the AI is spread across continents? Does it use the continent rating of the one where it's capital is?

**solo** · October 25, 2004, 17:43

Thanks for the tests and info, Zenon.

From my own limited tests, I had concluded that it was just the relative number of units, and that you just had to outnumber the AI on their home continent.

It's good to know about that 8-16 turn time period of reduced tribute too, since it's better get more tribute by waiting a bit rather than risk being cut off by becoming too chatty.

I might add some info on gifts, since I did some testing on this a few years ago:

1) There is also an 8 turn waiting period for gifts after establishing an alliance, with one exception being the chance of getting a gift during the same session the alliance was established.

I did not test for the relative size of gifts for the 8-16 turn period after establishing the alliance, but in a game with such symmetry, I believe the same reduction you discovered for tribute would apply. Iwould bet that the gift amounts would also follow the same pattern you have described for tribute.

2) As with an AI's willingness to become an ally, gifts depend very much on relative power ratings. Once your own power rating gets higher than the AI's, it will stop giving, but if it dips below the AI's later, gifts are once more available. This seems to work like clockwork once the initial waiting period is over.

**Six Thousand Year Old Man** · October 25, 2004, 19:01

Great analysis!

I will often stay in Monarchy a little longer than normal when I'm sharing a big continent with the AI, thanks to the tribute tactic. Taxes can be shut off while the tribute coins flow in, and luxuries increased so as to celebrate and pick up trade arrows as a Republic. No free growth, but no shield support issues, either.

Also - tribute can compensate for the fact that Camel delivery bonuses are a lot poorer when the continent is shared with your trade partner. (Minus the free beakers, but you can't have everything, unfortunately...)

**Zenon** · October 25, 2004, 19:01

Rah,

I had tried to find this out, too. AI cities and units on different continents did not change the outcome. In other words only the units on the home continent of the AI are taken into account. Transfering the AI capital to a different continent seemed not to change anything, either. My conclusion from the limited tests on this issue is, that the AI gets a continent number at the beginning of the game. Another possibility would be the majority of cities, but it seems unlikely.

Solo,

the 8 turn cycle seems to be the same for tributes and gifts. I agree that it is likely that there is also a prolonged 16 turn period where gifts are diminished.

The influence of the power rating on gifts was also my experience, though I never tested it. But I tested repeatedly if there is any influence on tributes. But even a supreme AI would give tribute to a much lower rated human player, if the military strength was higher.

Thanks for the comments.

Zenon

**solo** · October 25, 2004, 19:49

Yes, I concur that power rating has no influence on tribute.

I have one other question. Did you run any tests where the AI had techs not yet obtained by the human player?

**La Fayette** · October 25, 2004, 20:17

A new use for a boatload of crusaders

Nice to have "scientific" information to improve our terrible deeds.
Thank you, Zenon.

**Zenon** · October 26, 2004, 03:29

Thanks, STYOM. I agree that tributes are an important factor for the decision to switch to republic. There may be a possibility to get bonus deliveries and tributes from a different continent if you expand early to another continent and build cities and units there. It is not so difficult to get a better military strength on the new continent and then you have both, the bonus deliveries from your original cities and the tributes from the AI continent.

Originally posted by solo
I have one other question. Did you run any tests where the AI had techs not yet obtained by the human player?

Yes, I did, Solo. The AI "usually" gives gold, even if there are techs available. But I don´t know why you sometimes receive a tech instead of gold (unless there is less than 50g in the treasury). An untested theory is that it depends on how the tech is valued by the AI and if your demand of tribute hits this value you would get the tech instead.

Thanks, La Fayette. BTW, why is it I am not astonished that you like the aspect about a shipload of crusaders?

Zenon

**rah** · October 26, 2004, 10:27

This is helpful on determining when to drop out of Democracy for a turn to reap the benefits of tribute.
Sometimes I did it too early, even though my intuition was usually pretty good on this.

If I ever go back to playing SP, this will be useful. We just need the appropriate challange.

**Elephant** · October 26, 2004, 17:10

Over a year ago there was a theory that you needed at least one city on the AI continent in order to demand tribute, ie that a "boatload of crusaders" without a settler or city on the same continent would never permit tribute. Did you test situations where the RMS was high but there was no human city on the AI continent?

**debeest** · October 27, 2004, 00:26

Zenon, this is nice. I love to see that after about eight years, there's still the possibility of codifying new information about the game!

I've always assumed that my reputation affected my ability to get tribute. I mean, if three civs recently paid me tribute and then I attacked them all, the AI would have to be pretty dumb to pay me tribute yet again. Not that it isn't, but ....

Did you check on effects of reputation, as opposed to attitude?

**rjmatsleepers** · October 27, 2004, 02:14

Great stuff Zenon

One "house rule" I usually play by is to remain spotless at all times. It is relatively easy to get the AI to declare war by demanding tribute. But did you look at exactly when (ie under what circumstances) the AI will respond to a demand for tribute with a declaration of war? It doesn't seem to be related to military strength. In one game, the last remaining AI civ with a single city declared war on me!

Also (I expect most people know this), you can get the AI to withdraw its troops by demanding tribute. Is it more or less likely to be effective this way compared with simply asking them to go?

RJM at Sleeper's

**Zenon** · October 27, 2004, 04:04

Originally posted by rah
If I ever go back to playing SP, this will be useful. We just need the appropriate challange.

Rah, why not the tournament that just started? It´s a challenge and you could find out if it´s appropriate. And think of the Headlines: "Rah playing a SP game again! "

Elephant, my tests on a different continent worked without founding a city there. You just have to wait until the next turn after landing your units to get the new RMS calculated. Also having an AI city on the human players continent didn´t change anything.

Thanks, debeest. You get tributes even when you are down to atrocious, but I haven´t run specific tests, if there is a modifier. But I don´t think so.

RJM, thanks for the comment. Declaration of war was not in my tests, either. From my experience it is related with attitude and I agree that RMS is not the decisive factor. It may have an influence in combination with attitude, though. If the AI is on icy or lower you will usually get a declaration of war when demanding tribute. Also, as is well known, there are circumstances that make the AI very aggressive, like building a spaceship. But RMS does influence attitude. If your RMS is higher attitude tends to go up to uncooperative or stabilizes on higher levels. If your RMS is lower, as is often the case in ELG´s attitude is going down (faster).
I didn´t test when AI troops are on human players territory, but I tried if units threatening AI cities would change anything. Again, the results were the same.

Zenon

**Bloody Monk** · October 27, 2004, 10:21

Originally posted by rjmatsleepers
Great stuff Zenon

Also (I expect most people know this), you can get the AI to withdraw its troops by demanding tribute. Is it more or less likely to be effective this way compared with simply asking them to go?

RJM at Sleeper's

Yup. Withdrawal of troops seems to be "embedded" in the tribute-demand response. The use of tribute demand as a catch-all may have the unintended consequence of provoking a war, however, whereas, just asking that AI to leave would not.

That is something I found in a past game (probably an ELG). I noted the incident and went back to the saves later and briefly tested using the different query. It was only the one instance and only a five trial test, but each result was the same. The troop was removed and there was no declaration of war (where war was the original result). This is not a definitive test but it is an indication to me to be careful using a tribute demand when all I really want is troop removal.

This next bit is more hazy for me; I just don't recall clearly. How often have you gotten tribute AND troop removal together?? Even when MPE shows lots of available gold, isn't it the case that the discussion is ended when a troop is removed and the tribute is not given?? I can only recall a few instances where both MIGHT have happened, but as I say, it is all very hazy. Perhaps results are different between v2.42 and MPGE.

Monk

**debeest** · October 27, 2004, 13:33

My limited experience supports your observation, Monk: it's either troop withdrawal OR tribute, but not both.

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