ToT or MGE?

[fairline]

I've had a few beers and this seems like a good idea....

So how many of you actually own ToT? Working on the units for El Aurens and now Operation Market Garden has really opened my eyes to what's possible graphically with the ultimate incarnation of civ, not to mention the advice and example set by Catfish....

So what's stopping you scenario designers from taking the leap from MGE? Apart from the massively enhanced graphics potential, ToT has a much better set of events macros and events file size, enhanced unit stat options in the rules file, unconstrained sound allocation for units, the multi-map feature....... in fact the only 'advantage' MGE has is it's massively flawed events editor, which no-one in their right mind would use anyway. Oh, and the fact that there is no ToT audience

So tell me, what's stopping you?

[curtsibling]

Nowt really -

I recall all my early WW2 efforts were on ToT -
I only adopted MGE because I started getting emails from civ-people wanting to play MGE scens.

To tell you the truth, I used to love endlessly experimenting with the extra ToT graphic options and events...

Damb!
You've got me thinking.
I guess there is little to stop me developing Bitterfrost II in ToT - For a laugh...



Of course I would have to also create a new Dictator scen in ToT.
But I might need one or two unit graphics - hint hint!

[techumseh]

Ahh, another convert! I think some find it a bit intimidating as it is fairly complex. There's also a fairly small (but growing) audience. Still, for sheer creative potential, there's nothing like it.

[curtsibling]

Yep - I'm sold for Bitterfrost II - I am blown away by the graphics potential.

I had forgot the sheer variation available in the Bmp format!

Insane units, here I come!

[our_man]

I own ToT, and have played most of the scenarios out there for it. I agree, there is huge potential for it that remains untapped almost (is it?) 4 years after it's release.

I wouldn't design scenarios for it myself though. It doesn't seem as user friendly as MGE and it's complexity would require far more work investment.

[Boco]

What kind of beer? I found a bottle of McEwan's that's tasting pretty good. Btw, did you read that beer can cause gout?

Fairline you must have timed this so that the Europeans without access to cheap ToT are offline.

ToT oozes with potential, but reaching that potential does require a lot of effort. In fact without all the utilities, tips, and art posted on the forums, it'd be pretty daunting to make a ToT scen. So lotsa thanks to Tech, William Keenan, Merc ("read the d**n readme before posting!"), Gothmog, that ManU diehard, Wobbegonefish, and the rest of you. Not to mention the event discussions of Yoshi and Wobbegonefish over at CivFan.

Ahh, another convert!

Occasionally we listen to the voice from the wilderness.

Curt since you're moving on Bitter Froth, I 'spose I gotta post the updated EA soon. Despite not reading any of the help files, Palaiologos did uncover a significant bug undocumented feature.

[curtsibling]

'Bitter Froth' - That has potential...I might change the name of the scen!

[techumseh]

I'd rather blow the froth off a Bitter, than play 'Bitter Froth'! (pardon me, I'm having sympathetic thirst symptoms)

[AGRICOLA]

An entertainingly frothy thread that unfortunately seems somewhat academic. Perhaps the critical sentence should have been in large, red letters like this

Originally posted by Fairline

Oh, and the fact that there is no ToT audience

[techumseh]

Um, weren't you the guy that just ordered ToT on ebay? I'd say the audience is growing.

I'm doing whatever it takes to get people on board with TOT, even sacrificing my principles. Yes, I'm making a WWII scenario.

[Catfish]

I have copies of FW and ToT. I would've stopped at FW, if not for a certain veteran scenario designer who insisted that I get a copy of ToT – he actually mailed me the CD-ROM in early 2000! My first impressions of the game were that the graphics were horrendous – hated the blurry units, the dark terrain, background and menu tiles, and new city management screen. On closer inspection, I realised that ToT was clearly a superior scenario design platform to earlier versions and I replaced many of the graphics with custom ones. I now actually prefer the ToT city interface. Artwork aside, my main gripes with game were the aggressive diplomacy model (new to me, as I didn't have a copy of MGE) and the new health bar and shield (key). At the time, I was also dumbfounded that the product pricing, for what was in my view essentially a mod-pack, was equal to that of a full game (but that's no longer an issue).

Originally posted by our_man
I wouldn't design scenarios for it myself though. It doesn't seem as user friendly as MGE and it's complexity would require far more work investment.

Sure, it lacks the game editors, but who uses them? They're so buggy they should be afforded all the attention of a steaming turd. The fact that you can perform a straight conversion of a FW or MGE scenario to the ToT format using Angelo Scotto's CivConverter is proof that a ToT scenario doesn't require more work – the options are just there if you want them.

Since humans are visual creatures, we like nice graphics (as confirmed by the general obsession with graphics in these forums). So even if you decide to disregard all of ToT's rules and events options, what it does do is enable you to give your scenario a 16-bit overhaul. If you don't make graphics, replace them with ones from the Internet. Not a major time investment and kinda fun for some people.

Originally posted by AGRICOLA
An entertainingly frothy thread that unfortunately seems somewhat academic.

I don't exactly see bucket loads of people in the general Civ2 forums, here or at CFC. What's more, most of those belong to a small group of regulars. As an outsider looking in, I might be forgiven for believing that the writing is on the wall for all versions of Civ2. However, there are still new people and casual gamers (mostly at CFC) who pick up various versions of the product in bargain bins. Unfortunately the ones with ToT come to the forums, can't find a multiplayer community, can't find mod-packs or scenarios and probably end up moving on to another game. Is it possible that if the Civ2 design community gave the engine a fair shot, you might attract or retain more newcomers? What happens if your Civ2 source code petition is successful and you end up with ToT? Most new games these days have 32-bit graphics. Do you honestly think (with us being the visual creatures we are) that you are going to attract substantial numbers of new people to an 8-bit game? Is the choice still academic?

As for my involvement with Civ2, it's something I dabble in now and then. Regardless of the audience size, I would never work with MGE – I'm pissed off enough by ToT's limitations, I don't want something worse. I'd work with another game engine completely before I did that. Civ3's lack of events scripting means that it's not an option.

[GoPostal]

Looking at the poll, maybe I should get ToT

[Arthedain]

My two cents:

I've owned ToT for quite some time and I enjoyed playing it in the beginning but now I'm more into MGE again. I was really dissapointed in the future techs of the game, and going to a new planet wasn't as fun with the crappy in game aliens etc.

And as I'm still working on my first, serious, soon-to-be-released-scenario, I've desided to work with MGE, and I'm happy with that atm.

Edit: I still got ToT installed though, mostly because of new scenarios for it.

Edit: Oh yeah, and why can't I get the menus in place like in MGE, I'm used to that now. It's not a big problem though..

[Catfish]

Originally posted by Arthedain
Edit: Oh yeah, and why can't I get the menus in place like in MGE, I'm used to that now. It's not a big problem though..

Are you talking about the positions of the minimap and status bar? If so, use View menu -> Map Layout. It toggles between the top and RHS.

[AGRICOLA]

Originally posted by Techumseh

Um, weren't you the guy that just ordered ToT on ebay? I'd say the audience is growing.

Guilty as charged.

My character is just too weak to withstand the siren call of a topnotch scenario.