Newcomer to Apolyton, current game log

[lykaon]

I'm glad folks could open the save file. At least now people can see how I'm doing as opposed to just reading logs.

I played up until 25 BC last night. Game log and save will appear sometime in the next day or two, depending on how much time I have. I just made it to Republic, and I have talked with all but one of the civilizations on the planet. For some reason I forgot to speak with the Aztecs at all. Oh well.

Things are still going slow for now. I founded some new cities and have sent a couple of caravans off to England to see what they can get for some hides and beads. The ship chain is still not complete since any trireme in the middle of the ocean is going to sink and I don't want to build a chain that hugs the coast, jumps to another island, and then hugs the coast again.

I think what I need to do at this point is either build the Lighthouse or Magellan's Expedition. At this point I think Magellan's is possibly the better choice... leave my two triremes as the coastal anchors for the ship chain and buid a couple of caravels for the open sea portions... with increased movement I may only need one caravel (or possibly zero with Magellan's).

Copernicus' Observatory is definitely on my list of things to build when it becomes available. I think I still need mathematics, though. My poor citizens have all this money but don't know how to count it!

Thanks for the help.

Lykaon

[debeest]

Welcome, Lykaon! It's always great to have new people here, with new energy. I love your log with its quotations.

Detail to make your shipchains work: you send your loaded ship to a space where you have another ship -- then you wake up every unit on board, and then put them all back to sleep (it sounds stupid, but otherwise it won't work) -- and then you move them away on the next ship. That way the units expend no movement, and you can repeat the process all the way across the water and your units will still be able to move when they get there. Tedious, but effective. If you don't wake 'em up and put 'em to sleep, they stay behind. If you have to move 'em from one ship to the next, they won't be able to move again.

Always build your Wonders out of caravans. That way they get built sooner, and no one city is stuck building a Wonder that takes forever. When I started playing Civ I had no manual, so it wasn't until I played my seventh game, also King, that I learned you could get full value disbanding for Wonders. It made a HUGE difference in my game. The other thing I learned at the same time was the spectacular growth benefits of We Love the Consul Day in republic. Celebrate and grow!

Happy civving.

[-Jrabbit]

The Mac version is a little harder to find, but should still be available for about $10 if you can find it.

[Elephant]

Lykaon, you did well founding your first two cities on a river. That gets you an extra trade arrow. You fortified your second Warrior in the second city rather than sending them out to explore - that might have speeded up your early exploration. You are playing King level, which gives you 3 content citizens per city until you get too many cities, so it's OK to leave the cities undefended until around 3000BC, and then have a Warrior or Horse close enough to get there on the second turn if Barbs land.

In general, it does not pay to use Settlers to road or irrigate till you've gotten the "core cities" laid down - about half a dozen, close to the capital but not too crowded.

You had the advantage of getting Alphabet and CodeLaws free, so Monarchy came much earlier than usual. I would have chosen Trade in 2300BC, particularly since it was "hidden" the next round. Trade gives you caravans, activates F5 (see other civ's cities sizes) and allows you to build Marco Polo for instant embassies. After that go for Maps and start delivering caravans overseas to nearby civs.

In 1550BC Washington's Wandering Warriors reached Lovettsville. You then moved them on to Washington. You could have moved Lovettsville's Warriors out the turn before and had them and the Washington ones reach opposite cities at the same time. For that matter, once you had explored around Lovettsville there was little likelyhood of a suprise attack there, but Barbs could have landed on the coast near Washington. So you should have moved L's Warriors out to cover Washington back in 2650BC.

I'm guessing that the early, Monarchy part of the game is not what gives you problems playing at King level. The switch to Republic is probably more difficult. To keep the unhappiness down you need infrastructure and trade so as to use Luxuries. Temples and Marketplaces are important in all cities over size 3, and you need to shift your research a bit to work toward MonoTheism so you can build Michelangelo's Chapel soon. You have been accepting several techs from other civs that are just going to add to the research cost of the techs you need - the Monarchy for Warrior Code trade was a particularly bad one (I try not to give away Monarchy at all, but I do give away Republic as it slows down the other civ's building rates and increases caravan delivery payments). Anyway, work toward Philosophy and then MonoTheism and try to time six caravans to near completion when you get it (or stockpile those you are building now).

Don't build a Food caravan anywhere until the city has three trade routes locked in. Keeping the flexibility to reroute a caravan to another use is invaluable. You cannot deliver a spare Food caravan for emergency gold or trade routes. You may be SURE at the time of building that this caravan will only be used for wonders, but you will probably change your mind later.

Instead of researching Horseback for faster explorers, research Writing for Diplomats. They can explore as fast as Horses, pop huts, bribe unexpected Barbs, and establish embassies. Plus you can build Libraries in cities with high trade. PLUS you can rushbuild the 3rd row on your way to more Settlers.

You are building Colossus in Norfolk, which was #3, right? I'm not clear on whether that site is the best SSC. Hanging Gardens might make a better choice, unless another civ was about to finish Colossus first. With enough cities to produce caravans you could easily get both wonders in your chosen SSC at King level.

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by debeest

If you don't wake 'em up and put 'em to sleep, they stay behind.

Happy civving.

I've never "put 'em" back to sleep, just wake them. When the new ship leaves they will automatically go to sleep and move out on that ship. So, not quite so tedious after all.

Monk

[Traianvs]

You are building Colossus in Norfolk, which was #3, right? I'm not clear on whether that site is the best SSC. Hanging Gardens might make a better choice, unless another civ was about to finish Colossus first. With enough cities to produce caravans you could easily get both wonders in your chosen SSC at King level.

Doesn't his capital look better for a colossus? Btw I didn't notice any other civ building colossus, not entirely sure though. Btw at a given time a phalanx/horesemen from the white civ on your own continent will ask for tribute (well the civ demanded it when I played a few turns on his save). I say crush those weasels!! :doitnow:

[Elephant]

Aztecs were building Colossus, but switched to Pyramids.

Also, once you have Marco Polo you only need to get their attitude up to Cordial for a map swap, unless your Rep is less than Spotless.

[lykaon]

Thanks to all for the advice. Yesterday I played up to turn 100 (25 BC), so I didn't get a chance to implement some of the excellent suggestions mentioned here.

There's always the next game, though.

Elephant, I agree that Trade would probably have been better back in 2300 BC. I was hoping that it would be available the next time I could choose a tech to research, but I goofed and paid the price, waiting until 1200 (!) BC until I finally discuvered Trade.

You are correct that the rush to Monarchy is usually not a problem for me. The mid-game trip to Republic, when to celebrate, when to become Democratic, and so on is where I start to fall apart. You will probably start seeing all sorts of mistakes in this next set of logs that I post.

(memories...)
I remember a lot of my earlier games from a couple of years ago had me achieving and maintaining a large tech lead, only to have every nation upset at me. This is horrible for the later game, when they start catching up in tech... usually I have spent so much effort in research and advancement that my military suffers tremendously, and I get stomped from all sides fairly quickly. At that point in the game my reputation is usually miserable, so nobody wants to talk to me.
(end memories...)

I like the idea about the food caravans only when trade routes have been established. Flexibility is always a good thing. When the next batch of caravans start popping out they will most definitely not be carrying food.

I'll have to take a look at my capital and Norfolk to see what you mean regarding the Colossus. Shame I've already played the turns and the Colossus has been built or I might have switched things up a bit. Oh well, there's always the older save file or a new game.

Game log to follow: Turns 79 to 90

[lykaon]

=== turns 79 to 90 ===

[79] 550 BC: "Hey you kids, get off of my lawn!"
Atlanta produces food caravan. Caravan en route to Lovettesville. Production in Atlanta switched to harbor for growth and trade arrows.
Washington produces food caravan. Caravan en route to Lovettesville. Washington continues producting caravans.
We talk with Russians. They demand Pottery, and we give it to them.
We insist on Russian troop withdrawal. They agree and then terminate talks.
Trireme exploring English coastline. Find whales. More land to the south of England.
San Francisco horsemen move north to scout for additional Russian troops. Finds Russian horsemen. San Francisco undefended!

[80] 525 BC:
San Francisco produces settlers. Settlers en route to city site #8, a coastal plain with whales nearby. San Francisco continues producing settlers.
San Francisco horsemen continue to chase Russian horsemen.
Trireme moves toward new land sout of England. Unloads horsemen. Horsemen tip hut for 50 gold and re-board trireme.

[81] 500 BC:
Trireme exploring coastline of new land. Finds wheat.
Washington settlers finish working on irrigation/roadwork. En route to city site #9, grassland coastline tile with silk nearby.
One Atlanta food caravan reaches Lovettesville. Helps build embassy. Embassy complete in about 6 turns.
San Francisco horsemen "cover" settler en route to city site #7, keeping Russian horsemen from approaching.

[82] 475 BC: "Hey, they sure put up that pointy building fast!"
Aztecs nearly finished with Pyramids.
San Francisco horsemen re-acquire Russan horsemen, move to restrict Russian movements.
Lovettesville settler finishes irrigating river. En route to city site #10, forest tile with 2 fish and wheat nearby. Tile will be converted to plains before founding a city.
Trireme exploring coastline of new land. Land may be a peninsula or a small island (2 city sites?)

[83] 450 BC: "Wow... that is... big. What? Some foreign guy wants some of our books? What's a book?"
Aztecs build Pyramids at Tenochtitlan.
French switch from Pyramids to Great Library.
Civilization reaches 500,000 citizens.
Trireme exploring new land. Finds hut. Horsemen unload and tip hut for 50 gold. Horsemen reboard trireme.
Settlers reach city site #8, will build next turn.
San Francisco horsemen continue working to pin Russian Horsemen.

[84] 425 BC: "You know, I don't think it looks like me..."
Norfolk builds Colossus. Production switched to temple.
Charles Town builds temple. Production switched to harbor.
Settlers found St. Louis at city site #8. St. Louis begins producing horsemen.
Trireme continues exploring new land. Finds buffalo.

[85] 400 BC: "Oh, _that's_ a book! Now what do you do with it?"
Writing research complete. Choices are Construction, Polytheism, Feudalism, Literacy, Mathematics. Literacy chosen for Republic path and Philosophy.
San Francisco horsemen pin Russian horsemen against coast!
Atlanta food caravan reaches Lovettesville, but does not contribute to Marco Polo's Embassy (Embassy only needs 8 more shields).
Trireme exploring new land. New land is an island with 3 potential city sites.
Buffalo production switched from horsemen to legion.

[86] 375 BC:
Settlers reach city sites #9 and #10. Will build at site #9 next turn. Site #10 requires clearing first.
Trireme returning home for settlers or caravans.

[87] 350 BC: "Hey, look at all these people from abroad! Where did all this money come from?"
Lovettesville builds Marco Polo's Embassy! Production in Lovettesville switched to temple.
Chicago produces settlers. Settlers start irrigating river. Production in Chicago switched to temple.
Washington produces hides caravan. Washington continues producing caravans.
Settlers found Detroit at city site #9. Detroit starts building horsemen.
We have more than 200 gold!
Norfolk rush builds temple.
Charles Town rush builds harbor.
Atlanta rush builds harbor. 43 gold in treasury.

[88] 325 BC:
Atlanta builds harbor. Production in Atlanta switched to temple.
Charles Town builds harbor. Production in Charles Town switched to caravan.
Norfolk builds temple. Production in Norfolk switched to caravan.

[89] 300 BC: "Hand over your cash, now."
Taxes set to 7.0.3 (tax.lux.sci) to generate cash for caravan production.
French develop Monarchy.
Aztecs develop Ceremonial Burial (this late?).

[90] 275 BC: "Everybody wants flowers these days..."
English begin building Hanging Gardens.
Japanese develop Masonry.
Civilization reaches 600,000 citizens.

=== turns 91 to 100 follow ===

[lykaon]

=== turns 91 to 100 ===

[91] 250 BC:
St. Louis produces horsemen to guard city. Production in St. Louis switched to legion.
Washington produtcion switched to trireme.
Norfolk rush builds caravan.
City site #10 cleared. Will build next turn.

[92] 225 BC:
Beads caravan produced in Norfolk. Caravan en route to Washington to meet with returning trireme.
Trireme reaches Washington. Horsemen disembark. Washington hides caravan loads into trireme.
Settlers found New Orleans at city site #10. New Orleans begins producing horsemen.
"Yellow" trireme sighted near Atlanta... empty?

[93] 200 BC: "Vive le Revolution! Um... what?"
French government overthrown.
Washington produces trireme. Production switched to temple. Washington's food box is full with 4 citizens and only one garrisoned unit! Oops.
Buffalo produces legion, fortifying. Production switched to harbor for growth.
Tax rate set back to 3.0.7 (tax.lux.sci).

[94] 175 BC: "Hey! Quit burning stuff! Dude, get out there and shake those hips, you hunka hunka burnin... whatever!"
French are now a monarchy.
Civil disorder in Washington! Elvis used until temple is built.
San Francisco produces settlers. Settlers en route to city site #11, grassland on coast. Site is currently adjacent to pinned Russian horsemen. San Francisco continues producing settlers.
Trireme drops off 2 caravans, headed for York and London.

[95] 150 BC: "Um... haw? Um... bonjour?"
Civilization reaches 700,000 citizens!
We talk with the Sioux. They demand Map Making. We give them Map Making, peace, uncooperative.
We trade Iron Working for Construction, receptive.
We give Writing, cordial.
We give Trade, worshipful.
We share maps. Sioux are all alone on an island between Russia and England. 4 cities, all size 3 or smaller.
We talk with the French. They demand Trade. We give them Trade, peace, neutral.
They want to trade Literacy to us. We are two turns away from finishing Literacy research, so we choose not to trade (mistake?). They end talks.
We talk with the Russians who are now uncooperative. They demand Writing. We give them Writing.
We try to give them knowledge, but they refuse?
Caravans encounter English units. English want to talk.
They demand Iron Working. We give them Iron Working.
We give Writing, cordial.
We give Seafaring, worshipful.
We share maps (again). English now have 6 cities. London size 4, York 3, rest are 2 and 1.

[96] 125 BC: "Um... hajimema****e?"
Atlanta builds temple. Production in Atlanta switched to settler for road network.
Charles Town produces food caravan. Caravan en route to Lovettesville. Charles Town continues to produce caravans.
Lovettesville produces food caravan. Caravan sleeps in Lovettesville. Lovettesville continues producing caravans.
Detroit produces horsemen to guard city. Production in Detroit switched to caravan.
We talk with the Japanese. They demand Bronze Working (?!). We give them Bronze Working, peace, neutral.
We give Iron Working, cordial.
We give Construction, worshipful.
We share maps. Japanese are all alone on an island in the southern hemisphere, about 20 tiles away from us. 4 cities, all size 1 or 2.

[97] 100 BC: "We're so awesome! What? That French guy wants books again? At least we now know how to read!"
Tacitus rates us as the largest civilization on the planet! (1 Americans, 2 Russians, 3 English, 4 French, (5 Aztecs? Haven't met with them yet.), 6 Sioux, 7 Japanese.
French have nearly completed the Great Library.
Literacy research complete! Choices are Bridge Building, Mathematics, Philosophy, Polytheism, Wheel. We choose Philosophy for free tech.
Chicago settlers irrigating river make a detour to tip a hut for 50 gold.
Washington rush builds temple, 79 gold in treasury.
San Francisco settler reaches city site #11. Russians want to talk.
They demand Literacy, we give them Literacy, neutral.
They won't exchange knowledge!
They won't accept gifts of knowledge! I think the Russians may be my first city subversion...

[98] 75 BC: "So _that's_ what all those books were for..."
French develop Republic!
French build Great Library in Paris!
French switch from Great Library to Hanging Gardens? They were double-producing the Library?
Aztecs develop Code of Laws.
Washington builds temple! Elvis retired and put to work in the fields. Production in Washington switched to harbor.
Settler founds Baltimore at city site #11. Baltimore rush builds phalanx for defense. Horsemen are already in city since it was built on their tile. In hindsight it was probably very dumb to waste the cash building the phalanx since if Russia attacked and won against the horsemen the city would disappear along with all that rushed production. If Russia had attacked and lost then there wouldn't have been any additional threat to the city, and production could have progressed at a normal pace... oops.
I chose not to talk with the Russians this turn since they might have declared WAR if I had asked them to leave.

[99] 50 BC: "Get off of my lawn! You know... all this leading is tiring. How about some of you guys help out making the decisions around here."
We talk with the Russians and insist they withdraw their troops. They comply. They still won't accept knowledge, though.
Charles Town food caravan arrives at Lovettesville and sleeps.
Phalanx produced in Baltimore, fortified. Production in Baltimore switched to horsemen.
We talk with the French.
We trade Construction for the Republic. Oedo year? Revolution!!!
They demand Seafaring. We give Seafaring, receptive.
We give Mysticism, cordial.
We give Iron Working, worshipful.
We share maps. French are also all alone on an island in the southern hemisphere, south of the Sioux. 6 cities, Paris 6, Rheims 3, rest are 2 and 1.
Our power is supreme and our reputation is spotless. I vaguely remember reading something about keeping a certain "key civ" near your level of technology to keep down research costs, so I give it a try. I think the Sioux are the "key civ".
We talk with the Sioux. They demand Republic. We give them Republic, worshipful.
We give Seafaring, Mysticism, Monarchy, Literacy, Warrior Code (which the French then get from the Library), and Pottery.
I have no idea if my research costs have changed because I was an idiot and forgot to check prior to giving away all that technology.

[100] 25 BC: "Hmmm... a senate?"
We are now a Republic! Tax rate set at 2.0.8 (tax.lux.sci) for now. Research is about 4 turns per tech.
Cities tweaked. No unhappiness. Cities biased for production rather than growth for now until caravans start rolling.

=== end of log for now ===

[lykaon]

As before, comments, criticism, suggestions are all welcomed. Call me an idiot if I'm an idiot... because it's probably the truth. I am learning quite a bit from your replies.

For those of you who can read it, here's a save file from 25 BC.

Lykaon

[Bloody Monk]

Can't stay and chat, but will come back tomorrow for more detail.

Here are two glaring points that will be helpful, I think.

1) Always accept a trade for the scroll (Literacy in this case) you are currently researching. The beakers you have accumulated will carry over, giving you a leg up on your next research.

2) Check the Diplomacy screen you got from Marco Polo. This would let you know the reason the Russ are refusing your tech gift/trade offers. They already know everything you know. Check your science screen and note the techs in white. These are the ones that some AI does not know. Checking the Russ, they have the three white techs you are carrying. Therefore, no joy.

Give some thought to this question, please. Why did you switch to Republic?? What is your goal, here??

Monk

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by Bloody Monk

Check your science screen and note the techs in white. These are the ones that some AI does not know. Checking the Russ, they have the three white techs you are carrying. Therefore, no joy.
Monk

Are you sure Monk? I thought white on your screen simply meant you discovered it first. And therefore it is possible that another civ lacks a tech that you have, even if it is not white on your screen.

One of us is going to be able to say "I never realised that".

RJM at Sleeper's

[-Jrabbit]

My guess is that one of Lycaon's problems is in dealing with Republic. It seems like one "should" use it once it's discovered, but most of us learned that it can actually be extremely limiting, especially re production. I know I had to really train myself to make it useful, due to the severe restrictions in production and military movement. (That's why many here play a Monarchy-to-Democracy-to-soft-Fundy method on Deity level.)

An effective Republic requires much happiness Iboth infrastructure and luxuries) and a minimal militia. Personally, I do like Republic, but more for quick city growth through WLTxD than anything else.

[lykaon]

Monk, I had no idea that the research carried over to a new tech if you managed to acquire the one currently being researched. That is a very useful bit of information!

As for why I switched to Republic, it's because that's what I pretty much used to do... monarchy, then republic, then democracy, and then things would really start to fall apart at King level (hey, it worked at Prince level, so it _must_ work at King level too! ). It must be my old habits of wanting to increase my technological lead. I guess at King level that's not necessarily the way to go any more.

I think Jrabbit hit the nail on the head. I usually switch to Republic soon after I gain the tech. That is what probably hampers me in the early part of the mid game, until the cities get big enough for production to compensate for the unit support costs.

Would a better path have been to remain in Monarchy until a lot more trade has been accomplished, then switch to Republic (or Democracy if it is available at that time) for growth? If so, maybe I'll increase the luxuries rate to get some cities celebrating and then drop back to Monarchy on the next Oedo year.

Regarding the different government types... I have not experimented much with Communism or Fundamentalism. I've used Communism a couple of times for the veteran spies, and I've stayed away from Fundamentalism since my games of long ago revolved around technological advance and I didn't want to hamper my research by hitting it with a bunch of religious ideology. Jrabbit mentioned that many players at Deity level go "soft fundy" at some point. What exactly is "soft fundy"? It sounds like something one might purchase at a carnival food concession stand.

"Get yer soft fundys right here! Get 'em while they're hot!"

Lykaon