New project: The Deployement Machine

[Cyrion]

Originally posted by yaroslav
if you prefer to have a graphical editor of the tech tree, I'll do it instead of the Deploy Machine (in fact, it's a lot easier to do the graphical editor than the Deploy Machine).

Here, here!!

The deploy machine would be nice, but I admit that I have been dreaming about a graphical editor for tech tree for a while now (I even thought about opening a thread asking if someone would do it... )

So if you could do it, I'm sure I could use it (and translate it, of course )

About the "More powerful events": what have you in mind?? New kinds of events (like what??), or "only" more events space??

[yaroslav]

Ok, guys, it appears that the graphical editor of technologies is more demmanded that the machine of deployement, so I'm going to do that first

I was thinking in something that looks like the original poster of Civ2, where you can drag&drop tech and put the prerequistes and so on... Although Curt's way is a lot easier to do.

Let me think about it and make some draft work in order to see what I'm able to do.
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About the extendend events: It's possible. It has been done for ToT and there's no technical reason for that work not being duplicated in Civ2 MGE (in fact, SCDR and me discussed about it some months/years ago): see the project CSPL for TOT

http://coc.apolyton.net/utilities/index.shtml

or download it from

http://coc.apolyton.net/utilities/CSPL.zip

The problem of the CSPL project is that it accept the "superevents" only in a programming language way, so it's very difficult for scenario desing, because desginer don't know C or C++ or other computer's language. My idea would be to make a CSPL for PCs , but accepting input as a text file with events, like standard Civ2.

But CSPL for MGE has two problems:

1) First of all, it must be done in C/C++ instead of Java. That means that I need to recicle my code for C and locate a good AND free compile for C.

2) It'll mean that the MAC users will lost the compatibility (because I don't own a MAC so I can't programm a MAC-version) with the scens desinged that way. And both Henrik and POTUS (the Mac-civers I know) are so nice guys that they don't reserve to suffer that.
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So the people have spoken. I'll do the visual tech-three designer.

Unless any other idea will be suggested

[Elok]

What I was dreaming of was a pseudo-database click-and-drag interface, where you could shuffle around prereqs on a visual tree; left-click picks up a tech to move it to a new space, right click opens options like "make a prerequisite for" or "assign this tech a prereq."

I'm probably just dreaming there though...

[Boco]

For a visual editor, the trick is connecting those techs. I recently finished a tech tree diagram with Visio and realized that the possibilities are endless. My guess is that you'll need to start with techs in 'fixed' locations but have dynamic connectors. Since connected tech trees will often look like spaghetti, you'll need some method to focus on a particular part. Maybe clicking on a tech will highlight either all preqs and descendents or just the immediate ones. Another important feature would be a check for the kind of loops that crash Civ.

[yaroslav]

Boco, that tech tree is wonderful.... I hope I'll do something only 1% as impressive as it is.

Let's see what can I come with...

[Justinianum]

Originally posted by yaroslav

Why? Because I can write an utility that will create units (I think that I can, although I'm not entirely sure about it) while the game is running, it will only work in PC, and not in MACs.

In fact, that idea of not betraying MAC-users if what is stopping me of making an utiltity that extends the EVENT language to include more space for events and more powerful events.

I love you Yaroslav

[curtsibling]

Even if the output file would be a complete '@civilize' list, numbered 0-99, it would be a tool of massive use to vets and newbs alike!

Pondering:
How would one handle stand-alone techs or 'no,no' techs in this system?

[Boco]

This is reminding me of the guy who wants to hump Mercatore Uno's leg. You're gaining groupies!

Yaroslav, what you're trying to do is far more useful than one glossy guide sheet. My pic could never serve as a useful template for other scenarios. On the other hand, your utility will need to be far more flexible, perhaps a column or two of boxes representing techs. Click and drag one to another, and you establish a preq relationship that's shown by an arrow. Export that as an @CIVILIZE section, and designers will virtually adulate you. Even if it's in monochrome. Frankly, I'd be happy with the textual database approach that Curt's showing.

[Elok]

For "no, no" and nils, couldn't you just have a dead-end link option? Maybe a special mark or coloring to distinguish the nonos...

It might be nice, as an extra, to have a query system like the diagrams in the civilopedia entries, to let you view a specific "thread," from Horseback Riding to Tactics, without extraneous techs. I've often wanted to be able to just look at a single chain and think, "am I jumping the player through enough hoops before he can get this wonder? Are the incentives sufficient, including abilities gained along the way? Am I giving too much compared to the amount of research needed?" But that could be done with a full tree too. A limited alphabetizer, that respects special slots but otherwise assigns techs in an organized fashion, would help with user-friendlyizing scenarios. Don't feel compelled or anything though, I'm just spitting out ideas in case you're a perfectionist. I too would be happy with any editor that didn't spontaneously rename all the players "Michelangelo's Chapel," and all the other grief the FW editors give us.

I agree that it could be saved to an @civilize, especially to accomodate different versions of civ (FW, ToT, MGE) without a hassle.

I second-er, fifth the sentiment that this will be an immense help if you pull it off!

[Justinianum]

I'd like to see a tool for expanding scenarios gameplay possibilities, rather than an utility to speed-up the scenarios creation process. Here's some ideas:

1) Think about Red Front, but played as germas: the scenario creator need to use a lot of events to create the high number of units required to perform "Operation Blau", so wasting a lot of space that could be better used for other events. What about a script that when you load the "summer 1942" file creates in Rostov the high number of units required to launch the attack on Stalingrad?

2) The second idea is a bit more complex, but more fascinating. Think about a multi-part WW2 scenario: of course turns are month-based, but when the battle of El-Alamein is approaching the player is prompted to save the game and load a new map excpecially created for this battle, in which turns are day-based. The script should be able to take all the units in a specified map rectangle in the .sav file (one for axis units and another for british one) and place all of them in a specified location (again one for axis and another for british) in the new map. So the new map could use all the units formerly created in the main scenario. At the end of the bonus map the utility should be able to take the surviving units and to place them again in 2 specified locations for resuming the main scenario.

3) Another fascinating idea is to track how many (and which) cities does a player have at the loading of a certain part of a scenario (I'm still thinking with a multi-part scenario in mind). Think again about a WW2 scenario: what if at the beginning of 1945 Germany still have Minsk, Königsberg and Kiev? You could load a different set of files in which Russians have a lot more difficulties in reaching Berlin (and perhaps Germany could even conduct a separate peace treaty).

4) If you could track down how many shields a certain city have produced since the beginnig of the scenario one player could find, when he loads the last part of a scenario, that the Ploiest oil fileds production has dropped significantly.

I hope that my suggestions has been useful to you, and I want to say a big "THANK YOU" for your effort.

[yaroslav]

Quick reply.

1) Possible. A possible idea after this tech-tree displayer Thanks

2) Possible, but I don't know if that is a priority for scen dessingers

3) Possible, but again I don't know how many poeple like it.

4) Not possible I'm afraid, unless it's done while the game is running (that means NO MAC) or a savegame for each turn is given to the program (very very tiresome).

Thank you for your suggestion. I'll get more community feedback to know if they're top priorities

[GoPostal]

Good ideas Justianum

[Mercator]

Curt, your idea would hardly be interesting, wouldn't it? (no offense) It would be easier to simply edit the lines in the rules.txt.

A tech tree editor only really starts to become interesting when it allows you to click-and-drag technologies to piece an actual tree together.

By the way, if you're going for the tech tree editor, yaroslav, I have one vital suggestion: make sure that all special properties of technologies (Ceremonial Burial is required to make Temples work, Explosives enables transforming terrain, Guerilla Warfare enables Partisans etc.) are marked as well.

Apart from the drag-and-drop tree interface (which really only controls the prerequisites), there would also be a window where you can specify settings for each tech, like the image Curt showed... But it should include a drop-down box or something with all those "funny" technology side effects. That way people can take advantage of, or avoid those funny techs without the hassle of placing them correctly, and of course the advantage that they can immediately see which "special effects" are available. But this wouldn't work anymore when their tech tree becomes so large there aren't any "safe" places left. The user should probably be given a warning in that case.

Oh, and about Justinianum's #4 suggestion... Have you seen my (yet unreleased) CivSwap utility? When you have the autosave turned on, the XX_auto.sav (with XX being the first two letters of the leader name) will automatically be updated at the start of the human player's turn... The thread on CivSwap is here:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=99104

[curtsibling]

No offense taken, Merc.

My idea would be a good labour-saving device for new and old designers.

Also, it would cut out the typo factor, by giving a ready-made block that is ready to be merely pasted into rules.

Saying we need 'drag and drop' is fine and good, but only if someone is willing to perform the programming to make this possible.

[Mercator]

Originally posted by curtsibling
Saying we need 'drag and drop' is fine and good, but only if someone is willing to perform the programming to make this possible.

*cracks a whip at yaroslav*

Aaah... finally I can do that myself.