Us-Against-Them Free-for All

[Bloody Monk]

That's cool, JR. Not ashamed to admit it went right over my head. Thanks for the clarification.

I'm always in favor of more details in the logs, especially where it elaborates the thinking behind the actions. So much is learned by "seeing" a thing from another's POV.

Monk

[Scouse Gits]

Monk,

I'm ashamed to admit that this turnset was almost experimental for me - I'm so used to celebrating non-representative governments that I am p*ss poor at getting a weak Republic in hand (I would probably have stayed in Monarchy myself - which would have been a mistake I readily admit). It really hurt me to turn down the Lux and see all those red faces - I even had two (little) cities still celebrating and my natural inclination was to keep up the lux and get the last possible citizen - but that would have been wasteful. It will be interesting to see how the next couple of turnsets go - keep science high and struggle with the pennies or go for gold and rush all the much needed white goods. I admit I do not know which is optimal.
Similarly, I was uncertain as to the best tech path in this virgin territory - I chose to aim for Invention - but was that right? I don't know. It felt wrong to choose The Wheel - I don't recall ever having researched this tech in the last couple of years - I normally aim to steal Engineering on my rush to Mono & Steam. But this game is shaping up differently and I begin to wonder if my own game is flawed by my prior experience focussing as it does on fairly early conquest and I am becoming (mayhaps I always was) too inflexible.
Anyway - for the plethora of reasons above I really tried this turnset alien territory or no - it is very pleasing to find that no-one has yet to pull too many holes in it.

Stu

[-Jrabbit]

RCC -- Well, not so robust, but I was curious whether the Republic growth period was used to fund the acquisition of Settlers, or if the food/production cost was prohibitive.

[debeest]

SG, I like your new log mode for the concise info presented, and at the same time I agree with JRabbit -- what I really like in a log is to see what the person was thinking, why they made the choices they made.

Not that I've been good about that in the couple of logs I submitted in the dirty game....

I'm amused at your mea culpa, because my own inflexible style has been to go to republic (probably too late, usually) and celebrate my cities on and off, growing to their limits and then raising taxes to increase their limits through white goods. Typically a half dozen or a dozen turns celebrating, and then a similar period fundraising. So I spend LOTS of time focused on when to start and stop celebrating -- exactly what you say you hardly ever do!

I love this game!

[Scouse Gits]

-Jr, I wish, but unless I missed it there were no opportunities to fund a 'free' Settler from celebrating cities - at this stage with virtually no irrigation, there simply was not enough food

Stu

[-Jrabbit]

Thanks for responding, Stu. With our lack of development/infrastructure and relatively high level of corruption (distance from cap), I suspected this was the case.

[Grigor]

OK, it was my fault about the sleeping trireme - I moved it into the city in preparation for celebration in Republic. I should have mentioned it in the log. Usually I sleep units like wonderVans just outside a city so I can see them (it is also easier to wake them up).

I am interested in this discussion about fledgling Republic - this is where my game usually slows to a crawl. I have at least learned not to start it until the Chapel is built, but there are still problems, particularly in this game without the quick acquisition of techs toward Demo that MPE brings. The approved solution from the masters (Solo) seems to be to ignore all other projects in order to build Shake's ASAP and use one or two demanded AI trade deliveries to fund SSC projects, especially the Sewer. Once the SSC gets to size 21 the game starts moving again.

I found the log easy to read and could follow the progress very nicely without loading the game. I am never sure in what order the slider setting notation is - tax-science-lux? lux-tax-science? could be anything. And of course, more narrative is always appreciated...

[-Jrabbit]

Originally posted by Grigor
OK, it was my fault about the sleeping trireme. Usually I sleep units like wonderVans just outside a city so I can see them (it is also easier to wake them up).

I hate when people sleep units!!! The don't come up in the play rotation, so whole turnsets can go by without utilizing them. (I've even duplicated sleeping units in my build orders because they were obviously "needed.")

So yes, at the very least, a log note to your successor. from my perspective, better still to leave it active. (It's really not that much trouble to hit the spacebar, imho.)

I am never sure in what order the slider setting notation is - tax-science-lux? lux-tax-science? could be anything.

The game itself is the source of the inconsistency. Personally, I use the "percentage" format found in the Tax Rate dropdown. Top to bottom, these read Tax - Science - Luxuries. Thus, the default start condition would be described in my log as 40-60-0.

Unfortunately, the game uses a "tenths" in the little civ status box on the right of the screen (beneath the world map). In that notation, the starting condition is listed as 6.4.0 -- with Tax and Science reversed from their order on the actual slider chart. (Or is it 0.4.6, as suggested by Grigor's post? Sorry, this is IIRC and I may have mucked it up. I rarely ever look at that notation while actually playing!!!)

Personally, I like the "percentage" convention and use it consistently. So when I say I've moved the faders (sliders), it's in the top-down order they appear on screen.

[Scouse Gits]

The a.b.c notation is indeed from the top right-hand info box and is Tax.Lux.Sci

Stu

[Elephant]

Originally posted by Bloody Monk
I'm always in favor of more details in the logs, especially where it elaborates the thinking behind the actions. So much is learned by "seeing" a thing from another's POV.

That's my problem: I log all the details, but little of the thinking and reactions - the "why". Once I'm done I want to get it up as quickly as possible, otherwise (like a GOTM or ELCG) I'll spend a few days making it look better.

Good debate on logs here. The "soul-less" nature is mis-directed: compressing the details into something like that gets the critical stuff out of the way, so you should be able to spend more time on "what and why". The biggest complaint I have felt (but neglected to express) in taking over a Succession game is not knowing how many beakers are in the box. Everything else I can look up, but I hate loading ST's utility just to get one silly number. Some of us prefer to keep a Spotless Rep; others prefer not to black-click; I prefer not to waste beakers (if possible). An extra caravan delivery when the box is already full is a major decision for me.

I'll take the other comments about "more narrative" to heart...

[Elephant]

Originally posted by Scouse Gits
Monk,

I'm ashamed to admit that this turnset was almost experimental for me - I'm so used to celebrating non-representative governments that I am p*ss poor at getting a weak Republic in hand (I would probably have stayed in Monarchy myself - which would have been a mistake I readily admit).

Government switch seems like one of the biggies for Succession Games. We all love to add cities, but that has consequences to happiness and amount of improvements needed.

It will be interesting to see how the next couple of turnsets go - keep science high and struggle with the pennies or go for gold and rush all the much needed white goods.

TRADE! for both beakers and gold...

Similarly, I was uncertain as to the best tech path in this virgin territory - I chose to aim for Invention - but was that right?

I usually delay Invention. It has the dual effects of shutting down techs from huts (depends on your attitude toward that) as well as killing the doubling bonus on caravan delivery payments. Plus once you get it the AI ask for nothing else, and sometimes get testy about it.

Mono & Steam: sounds like a real Early Conquest plan - Crusaders and Ironclads? And is Lighthouse and SunTzu in there somewhere too? My preference had been for Knights: is the +1 worth the lower defense?

[Scouse Gits]

Mono & Steam: sounds like a real Early Conquest plan - Crusaders and Ironclads? And is Lighthouse and SunTzu in there somewhere too? My preference had been for Knights: is the +1 worth the lower defense?

Gardens, Lighthouse, Magellan's & Mike's are my target WoWs - the odd Science Wonder does not go amiss, but they are deemed non-essential - I rarely build Sun Tzu - prefer to rely on strategic barracks - the healing is valuable. Little can stand before a vet Crook (7.5) particularly after the Super Clads have decimated the defending forces - the last few cities often have Rifles behind walls - but enough Crooks will still take them.
I guess the crux of my strategy is turning Science to zero once I've achieved Mono & Steam - until about 1750 the AI will mirror your Science endeavour and thus do not get too far ahead. Naturally all of this with a largely celebrating Monarchy.

Stu

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by Scouse Gits
Monk,

I'm ashamed to admit that this turnset was almost experimental for me - I'm so used to celebrating non-representative governments that I am p*ss poor at getting a weak Republic in hand ***snip*** It will be interesting to see how the next couple of turnsets go - keep science high and struggle with the pennies or go for gold and rush all the much needed white goods. I admit I do not know which is optimal.***snip***
Similarly, I was uncertain as to the best tech path in this virgin territory - But this game is shaping up differently and I begin to wonder if my own game is flawed by my prior experience focussing as it does on fairly early conquest and I am becoming (mayhaps I always was) too inflexible.

Stu

Sorry to chop your post up so, but I wanted to have a referrence for a few comments.

"Weak Republic", a good term BTW, is a very different animal from "our" usual gameplay. Nothing to be ashamed about. We are all a bit at sea with this problem until we learn/experience a bit. A lot of the "best path" choices that Solo talked about were very counter-intuitive for me; for instance, first build for a new city not warrior but temple. Since Republic "charges" shield support, a new city can't afford units. Temple then Market so it can celebrate and grow, is the ticket. If you lose one to Barbs, move on.

Grigor made a very good summary of the main path choices. The idea is to get the SSC bulked up ASAP. Use deliveries to generate the cash needed for its improvements. In this game, with the lack of contact, trade is going to be a problem. Also, without contact, the usual process of getting Wheel and Engineering from the AI will not work. Consequently, these should have been a higher research priorty, in my opinion. Not having a sewer will hold things up greatly. Your alternative, getting Invention, Democracy, and the SoL, has some appeal--"Get me out of this dang Republic, now!!" But that path misses a lot of SSC growth.

I think it will be a slog for a while, but, by pushing science over cash and getting Sanitation, the SSC can be celebrated up before going Fundy and then using the resulting cash and free support to build in the necessary improvements to allow gross celebrations when the shift to Democracy comes. Until the move to Fundy, having the other cities grow is not a great idea because of the resulting need for Luxuries to keep everyone happy. A slider point or two on Lux is a waste if the SSC can't grow.

The inflexibility thing is why I got busy, for a time, with Early Landing Games. I kept bugging Solo to write his "guide" so I could see my way through all the trees, the fog, if you will allow, of trying to make a "weak Republic" work. The strategy has moved on now, but I am very glad Solo "forced" me to learn, or at least experience, the "Republic Slog."

This will be tedious for a while, but, the sun will come up tomorrow, eventually.

Monk

[Bloody Monk]

A lot came forth while I was typing!! Most of my comments were based on the Republic predicate. If one wants Crooks and Clads Conquest, then staying in Monarchy would probably have been better. Hard to make a Republic work with an Army and Navy afield. And building all the necesssary units doesn't allow for the Republic needed white goods.

Need to settle on one path, I think. Old saying: "Not wise to go down river in two boats."

Monk

[Scouse Gits]

No, Monk, the Croooks & Clads are definitely off-topic for this game - just an interesting thread-jack I guess.

Stu