Aegean Team Game: Thread #2

[Ephack]

I know Dacole you said we just have to answer in your format, but I'm not sure I understood...

If you say that in any case, we reload the game, then:
Issue 1, option 2
Issue 2, option 3

But if "issue 1, option 2" mean no reload, then I want option 1 because I didn't play my turns.

In any case, we could wait until Saturday for Sabrewolf to come back and then we will have some time to investigate. Should not take a week, does it?

[Andydog]

Issue 1 option 1
Issue 2 option 3

But I do agree that snoopy's suggestion seems the most practical. I doubt an investigation will achieve much.

Would GeoModder and BigFree agree to replaying 920ad - but perhaps with one player going first and the other agreeing not to move any of their units until the first player has hit end turn? (Obviously once first player hits end turn, he cannot then go back and move any units until after the next turn starts).

This is the format we are using in Teach Alex, and it works nicely.

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by Andydog
(Obviously once first player hits end turn, he cannot then go back and move any units until after the next turn starts).

Aside from this caveat - which is not acceptable and has been discussed ad nauseum - I can't see why this would be a problem.

[BigFree]

I totally would agree to replaying 920 AD. The idea is that I would play first, before Geo, since he moved his units/played his turn last on the turn before.

[proviisori]

The Lumberjacks vote...

issue 1: option 1
issue 2: option 3

[dacole]

If the agreeived parties will agree that an investigation will not acomplish anything then I will forgo it. I thought the accused might want to clear his name. Reloading may give some people the chance to choose different stratigies if some things didn't go the way they liked before. There really is no way to know if anyone does different moves than they did the first time. Has everyone that is currently playing voted? Can the accuser and the accused answer my above question. Game will be paused when I get home until this is cleared up as that seems to be the way the voteing is going.

[BigFree]

I really don't think you'd be able to investigate to see when certain units were moved exactly and then compare that to when other units were moved in terms of order of play.

It is easy to see, from the game logs, who has been playing before whom (as far as Geo and I are concerned). Therefore it should be easy to declare that if during a war one person has been playing their turns after another there should not suddenly be a change where the other person suddenly plays before the other causing them to make double moves.

Tha said, I'm sure even Geo would agree that I have been playing first during a turn, follwed by him. That turn order should remain intact during our conflict.

The exceptions to this is only when and if I do not play my turn in a timely manner. Geo should not have to skip a turn because I did not play my turn in an expeditious manner. A minimum of at least half the turn timer should pass before a player should make a double move during a time of conflict. This gives both persons time to play the turn in a manner deemed most fair.

[Andydog]

That sounds fair to me.

Originally posted by snoopy369

Aside from this caveat - which is not acceptable and has been discussed ad nauseum - I can't see why this would be a problem.

I haven't read the discussions and was interested in why it wasn't considered acceptable?

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by BigFree
The exceptions to this is only when and if I do not play my turn in a timely manner. Geo should not have to skip a turn because I did not play my turn in an expeditious manner. A minimum of at least half the turn timer should pass before a player should make a double move during a time of conflict. This gives both persons time to play the turn in a manner deemed most fair.

I'd say more like 8 hours (in a 24 hour turn timer - clearly more in a longer one), and even then there will be issues occasionally. I can only play my turns really at one particular point in the day - late evening, around 12am EST - so if one day my opponent plays a turn at 11pm, and another day he plays at 1am, I will be double moving, sorry to him but it's not a choice.

In other games 8 hours has generally been considered acceptable, even though it's clear that sometimes you will still have issues if you're someone like me with only one time to play the game (issues on both sides of course). 8 hours is enough for good faith, and as long as you still generally avoid taking advantage of it, it should not be a problem. Beta and I are involved in a war in another game (one of the most even midgame wars i've been in ... a bit scary really), and we've both ended up double moving multiple times - because it's not avoidable. We avoid it when we can, and we just accept it for what it is and don't try to take advantage.

8 hours is a good number, by the way, because it in most cases allows someone who really cares to get in - it's the length of a working day after all, so unless your turn ended JUST before you left the house, you will usually be back within 8 hours - but it doesn't overly limit someone who has say 2 chances to play the turn 12 hours apart, from using his first chance. (Say, you can play the turn at 8am and 8pm, and the turn rolls at 12am; if you can play it at 8am, then you don't risk losing a turn if you go out at night or something). 12 is just a bit too long in a 24 hour turn timer, though for a 36 hour or longer game i'd say it's an excellent amount of time.

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by Andydog
That sounds fair to me.



I haven't read the discussions and was interested in why it wasn't considered acceptable?

Read up a few pages ... I don't really want to start the discussion over again

[GeoModder]

Originally posted by dacole
If the agreeived parties will agree that an investigation will not acomplish anything then I will forgo it. I thought the accused might want to clear his name. Reloading may give some people the chance to choose different stratigies if some things didn't go the way they liked before. There really is no way to know if anyone does different moves than they did the first time. Has everyone that is currently playing voted? Can the accuser and the accused answer my above question. Game will be paused when I get home until this is cleared up as that seems to be the way the voteing is going.

On your first point, I don't think an investigation will accomplish much, since in the strict sense of the word I didn't double move IMO (read further before you explode, MrBig). About clearing my name, damage is already done due to MrBig's angry remarks, there's no use going to lengths to clear it and alienate the other participants even further with unnecessary delay which an investigation would cause.

Now, the reason I don't consider my actions a double move are these: first, there was a full 24 hours (and a few minutes extra) between the times I played these turns and moved my units. Second, MrBig hadn't checked in for over 28 hours according to CivStats which is quite long, longer then the turn timer for the game. Third, I had a busy schedule last week so I wasn't sure if I would be able to play later on thus I simply played when I saw an open turn.
Now, on the moves. There are/were two core points at the time: firstly 2 of my units, one of them being a general, were chased down by 6-7 units of MrBig through the jungle. I can understand his desire to bring down such an important unit at all costs, just like I liked to save it at all costs. I put an automove sequence on them so they would move at first opportuniy gamewise, and every time I logged in I re-enacted it to make sure. The chase started with me at a disadvantage (one of his flanking units overtook my runaways) hence the automove on the most likely safe path where he was unlikely to block the retreat. Move and forget for me.
The second point of action was a fleet of mine (you've probably all seen the picture) starting for a rampage on Egyptian fisheries. Now, those units all started just outside Egyptian territory, so he had them on visuals for the full 3 turns it took them to reach the fisheries. I had a better shipclass then him, so could scout ahead at my leisure without risking the screening ship too much while the slower ships came behind at their speed. Now the turn before the contested turn I had a nice look into his fisheries and defenses of the city, so knew what to expect. Then the game crashed, and we all had to replay our turn. I hadn't yet moved the whole fleet before the crash due to time issues, so I assume that's why MrBig is so fed up with this part of the action. I did so after I noticed the turn had to be replayed, and then the 24 hour hiatus happened. I attacked next time I could play, the result you all know...

Now, I of course can be forced into a replay and would have to abide on it, but in that case I think it's only fair that I get full compensation (sofar I consider it partly compensated) for the turn MrBoo put a straight out of the book double-move on me as explained on page 2 of this thread. After all, it did alter the progress of the war since I wasn't able to keep a military presence in Egypt for a few turns.

Now, discuss.

[BigFree]

Originally posted by GeoModder


Now, the reason I don't consider my actions a double move are these: first, there was a full 24 hours (and a few minutes extra) between the times I played these turns and moved my units.

That much time expired because that is how much time lapsed between when you played that turn and when you were able to play the next turn. No surprise there; so, don't know what kind of point you're trying to make.

Just because 24 hours lapsed between when you played one turn and then played another it doesn't mean that making a double move was justified. There were nearly 24 hours left on the turn timer when you, infact, double moved.

Originally posted by GeoModder
Second, MrBig hadn't checked in for over 28 hours according to CivStats which is quite long, longer then the turn timer for the game.

28 hours since I "checked in?" You are confusing logging into the game and checking the status versus using CivStats to "check in." Infact, I use CivStats when it's available to do so.

I make my turn, you make yours. That has been the order since I started playing mrboo123's Civ. The turn in question has you playing your turn, before I play mine, with more that 23 hours left on the turn timer. It is a simple matter really.

Your excuses for making a double move, when it would benefit you most, are not valid in my opinon.

Originally posted by GeoModder

Third, I had a busy schedule last week so I wasn't sure if I would be able to play later on thus I simply played when I saw an open turn.

If I could do something that is wrong while blaming it on "being busy," then I could do all sorts of wrong things....

Originally posted by GeoModder
Now, on the moves. There are/were two core points at the time: firstly 2 of my units, one of them being a general, were chased down by 6-7 units of MrBig through the jungle. I can understand his desire to bring down such an important unit at all costs, just like I liked to save it at all costs. I put an automove sequence on them so they would move at first opportuniy gamewise, and every time I logged in I re-enacted it to make sure. The chase started with me at a disadvantage (one of his flanking units overtook my runaways) hence the automove on the most likely safe path where he was unlikely to block the retreat. Move and forget for me.
The second point of action was a fleet of mine (you've probably all seen the picture) starting for a rampage on Egyptian fisheries. Now, those units all started just outside Egyptian territory, so he had them on visuals for the full 3 turns it took them to reach the fisheries. I had a better shipclass then him, so could scout ahead at my leisure without risking the screening ship too much while the slower ships came behind at their speed. Now the turn before the contested turn I had a nice look into his fisheries and defenses of the city, so knew what to expect. Then the game crashed, and we all had to replay our turn. I hadn't yet moved the whole fleet before the crash due to time issues, so I assume that's why MrBig is so fed up with this part of the action. I did so after I noticed the turn had to be replayed, and then the 24 hour hiatus happened. I attacked next time I could play, the result you all know...

Now, I of course can be forced into a replay and would have to abide on it, but in that case I think it's only fair that I get full compensation (sofar I consider it partly compensated) for the turn MrBoo put a straight out of the book double-move on me as explained on page 2 of this thread. After all, it did alter the progress of the war since I wasn't able to keep a military presence in Egypt for a few turns.

Now, discuss.

1. Your General would not have escaped. I had him cut off from the North You could only move E-W or South. I had a fast mover in the stack. You would have either have had to attack me in the jungle, sit tight, move inot the clearing at which point in any of those scenarios I would have attacked your general.

2. The "ship" situation is not as you describe. It is as I described in an earlier post. I do not wish to re-argue that point. Besides, if you are not allowed to double move when we reload you will be disproved anyhow.

[BigFree]

Snoop, can dacole change the turn timer on this game?

36 hours seems like the best choice...

[Ephack]

Hello all,

I'm not a regular player and I can't decide who from you is right and who is not. There's probably truth in both. What I would like to say is that exactly like Snoopy, I have only a small window to play my turn (and actually we work 10 hours a day here, so you theory about 8 hours is not always valid - don't worry I still agree to it, that's fair enough ).

I'm sorry but I would like to play one turn a day. It seems a fair deal. I agree that if I am the last one to play the turn, I should not play the following turn immediatly if I am in a war. But if my ennemy still didn't play 24 hours later, I'm sorry but I have to play then!

And I disagree on the 36 hours timer. It's too long. On this island game, things are already quite slow, if we play every 1 1/2 day we will still be in middle ages next year!

[dacole]

ok confused as to what people want me to do. I do have saves after each person logs in and after the turn changes so I could look to see when units move though I would have to log in as the party and "play" there turn at various times throughout the game. For me if the turn has advanced you are free to play your turn if it is open. So you play the last time in one turn the turn advances (as you were the last one to play) and then you play again right afterward...didn't think this qualified as a double move.

Anyway do you want me to reload the game if so at what date in game? Still willing to investiage if so desired.