Test game: Lizzy of Aztecs

[DNK]

The save was linked to in the post, Ozzy.

7 aren't being worked, but that's because I've had to shift in some cities from one direction (rapid growth or commerce) to another (heavy production). The capital, for example was working cottages briefly, but then shifted to production to get GLH out quickly, and will be back on the cottages when it's finished. Another was a farm for a city that hit its happy cap. The others would be worked very soon as the city was growing quite quickly. I always prefer to be slightly ahead in improvements rather than slightly behind - and being spot on isn't usually possible. Besides, having a choice of improved tiles is nice.

Note that a good number of work-turns get used on reimproving tiles: Powerhouse (FP city) originally worked farms to grow quickly, then the farms got cottaged over, and later in the game will be farmed again as it switched to a production center. Around T80 I had little use for hammers and a lot of use for commerce - as the game went on that switched to needing a strong production center as more and more grassland-heavy cities were founded to the north (and readily chopped out of their jungles and cottaged up).

Anyway, I tried again, but this time played as though the AI was not going to attack, and hence I didn't need a bunch of units (I've been playing aggressive/ruthless AI for some time now, so that's my default). GLH to finish in 3T: http://apolyton.net/local_links/links/c-diplo-gaming-435/5774

Still not as good as Cal, though

GNP = 63/71
HPT = 45/36
Food= 56/58

Only 7 workers this time, but man I am now working unimproved tiles! Anyway, city locations are better, as I've blocked Gilg out entirely, though he snuck a city right inbetween 3 of mine

[DNK]

After looking at your T100: working a bunch of unimproved tiles... tsktsk

Having more workers does make sense if you grab BW earlier, though. In my second attempt, I didn't even whip once, but all that chopping really sped things up. Usually, I grab 1-2 improvement techs, then straight to BW, then go back for pottery, then head out for wonders or mil, whichever is necessary.

I see you guys love your Oracle

[OzzyKP]

The save was linked to in the post, Ozzy.

You only linked to the save for turn 10.

[DNK]

Since we've all at least played the first 10T, let's discuss?

1: SIP? I think it's an obvious 'yes' here.
2: first build and tech?
2A: first build for me, of course, is a worker. He will dawdle a bit between techs, but I'd rather get something improved quickly than work up on unimproved tiles as I wait.
2B: AH, then Agriculture. I want the best tile improved first, and that's the cow, 4F2H vs 5F = +1HPT. The fact that everything else is covered in forests means each is useful for just one tile anyway now.
3: scouting direction? I start up and then break west for no real reason. South is obviously not the way to go, as finding the closest neighbor is always #1 for me and early scouting. This ends up being the right direction, and lets me see quickly that very rapid REXing to two key spots will be necessary (Ivory Tower and Powerhouse).

[DNK]

Ah, that didn't work as expected
Now it's here.

[OzzyKP]

I'm generally not an oracle guy, but it is hard to pass it up in this game. You start with marble right there, which meant I built the Oracle in 6 turns in my cap, and it got a rather expensive tech (at the time) and got our UB early. Win, win, win. It nabbed a religion as well, and provided priest GP points which allowed me to build a shrine for the religion without problems. Win, win, win, win. Great Lighthouse isn't at all the wonder I'd consider building here. Not enough coastal cities to warrant the cost.

As a comparison between our 100 turn saves:

Cal
30 beakers
42 production
70 food
23 population

Fishing, Wheel, Agriculture, Hunting, Mysticism, Mining
Sailing, Pottery, Animal Husbandry, Archery, Meditation, Masonry
Priesthood, Bronze Working
Writing, Iron Working
Code of Laws

Good Ozzy
39 beakers
33 production
56 food
23 population

Fishing, Wheel, Agriculture, Hunting, Mysticism, Mining
Pottery, Animal Husbandry, Archery, Meditation, Masonry
Priesthood, Bronze Working
Writing, Iron Working
Code of Laws

Bad Ozzy
31 beakers
28 production
41 food
17 population

Fishing, Wheel, Agriculture, Hunting, Mysticism, Mining
Pottery, Animal Husbandry, Archery, Meditation, Polytheism, Masonry
Priesthood, Bronze Working
Writing


First DNK
20 beakers
34 production
58 food
19 population

Fishing, Wheel, Agriculture, Hunting, Mysticism, Mining
Sailing, Pottery, Animal Husbandry
Bronze Working

Second DNK
27 beakers
45 production
56 food
22 population

Fishing, Wheel, Agriculture, Hunting, Mysticism, Mining
Sailing, Pottery, Animal Husbandry, Masonry
Bronze Working

mzprox
56 beakers
30 production
53 food
18 population

Fishing, Wheel, Agriculture, Hunting, Mysticism, Mining
Animal Husbandry, Meditation, Politheism, Masonry
Priesthood, Bronze Working
Writing, Monotheism
Aesthetic
Code of Laws, Literature
Philosophy

[OzzyKP]

Since we've all at least played the first 10T, let's discuss?

1: SIP? I think it's an obvious 'yes' here.
2: first build and tech?
2A: first build for me, of course, is a worker. He will dawdle a bit between techs, but I'd rather get something improved quickly than work up on unimproved tiles as I wait.
2B: AH, then Agriculture. I want the best tile improved first, and that's the cow, 4F2H vs 5F = +1HPT. The fact that everything else is covered in forests means each is useful for just one tile anyway now.
3: scouting direction? I start up and then break west for no real reason. South is obviously not the way to go, as finding the closest neighbor is always #1 for me and early scouting. This ends up being the right direction, and lets me see quickly that very rapid REXing to two key spots will be necessary (Ivory Tower and Powerhouse).

In both my games I didn't settle in place. The blue circle hint suggested moving there, and usually those things indicate hidden resources, so I went for it. I moved one tile east. That got me both corn resources. Which is also why I went for agriculture first, not AH. I also went worker first.

[Robert]

I'll give this a try tonight.

[DNK]

Well, I usually don't go off of that info, so SIP. Plus, I had more than enough food in the BFC for the capital, so if there was extra in an unseen tile, it wouldn't be as useful unless I turned the capital into a GPFarm, which might not have been such a bad idea after all.

I see the big difference between my approach and Ozzy's is the Oracle+Writing thing. I prioritized techs for GLH (and with 6/8 coastal cities at T150, I think it was quite useful for me).

Comparing T150s is a bit more instructive, so I'd like to see Cal's and Ozzy's second attempt T150. You guys beat me in tech in T100, but that's mostly Oracle and getting a library in the capital whipped early with 2 scientists in it - I go with a cottaging approach there, and in my T100 the cap is running pure production for the GLH. My one big issue, I think, is being slow to get out GScis - academies early can really add up over time, and I failed at that.

[mzprox]

I only played till turn 50.
Settled in place, start with worker and agriculture-I don't see real alternative here (that corn is 6 food)
After that I went on mining/bronzeworking. Goal is to expand fast and get the GLibrary soon. Weakness of my gameplay is the lack of warriors.
My build order was: worker warrior settler worker
The lack of luxuries is hurting.

[Calanthian]

One thing I realized that I'd rather have Lizzy of the HRE. I am no fan of the Aztecs.

get the capital big then REX vs REX

This is an approach I use on big maps.

One big advantage is, especially in this case is: 1) good tech research (100%), and a religion in my capital (gold/beakers).
And then you can build settlers in 4 or 5 turns, the moment you start REXing. There must be sufficient room though.

[DNK]

Ah, so the corn is 6F - then that would be best, my mistake.

The problem is, as with this game, that if you want to catch a really important location from a neighbor, there's a big cost to delaying the REX - I think I'm the only one that got both the floodplains and ivory locations, and both were very close calls. Moreso the case if our opponents are more aggressive and we can't focus on teching and catching religions and making wonders. For all of us, this played out too much like a typical SP early game: build and build and expand and wonder and build and nevermind the military.

This is why I want to see the T150 saves, because that's when the plan starts to pay out. You guys got a good early tech lead on me, but I picked up some really great land instead - once I get HR and I can pump up that land beyond 5 tiles, the benefits start rolling in - and earlier if I need to pump/whip out units for a defensive war (which we didn't need to deal with here, though which will be a big issue in MP or with aggressive AIs). I still suspect you'll be ahead of me, though.

Once we discuss this in full, I really want to do another game, but with aggressive AI and preset neighbors: Monty, Catherine, Shaka, and Ragnar (maybe 1 neighbor can be a builder). I think this will better test our approaches versus the sort of heat we'll see in the actual MP game, both in terms of fast REXing and militaristic/aggressive neighbors. Also we need fairly balanced starts where our neighbor actually starts with a metal, as this game was too easy with the Romans locked out of strategic resources completely for about 150 turns. I've prepared such a scenario, but this one has a lot of discussion left so I'll wait.

[Calanthian]

Once we discuss this in full, I really want to do another game, but with aggressive AI and preset neighbors: Monty, Catherine, Shaka, and Ragnar (maybe 1 neighbor can be a builder). I think this will better test our approaches versus the sort of heat we'll see in the actual MP game, both in terms of fast REXing and militaristic/aggressive neighbors. Also we need fairly balanced starts where our neighbor actually starts with a metal, as this game was too easy with the Romans locked out of strategic resources completely for about 150 turns. I've prepared such a scenario, but this one has a lot of discussion left so I'll wait.

DNK,

why don't you put this scenario in a different thread? Now?

But before you do that: I hope we'll drop the Aztecs.. for either HRE, Carthage or the Dutch.


PS. Lizzy is still nr.1, but if we don't get her in the game I'll opt for Willem van Oranje (CRE, FIN).

[Calanthian]

2A: first build for me, of course, is a worker. He will dawdle a bit between techs, but I'd rather get something improved quickly than work up on unimproved tiles as I wait.

I think we have a different strategy in the first few turns. Especially near the coast I tend to build workboats first, while the city keeps growing, and then quickly build the workers and settlers.
(depending of course of the resources and techs available).

[mzprox]

for me HRE is not that attractive. for this start England or the Dutch would be really good thanks for their starting techs (and they are strong civs in general).
I still believe that in the long run sacrifical altar would pay off. In dof I slaved my cities 30-40 times at least and unhappiness has slowed me.
In my game Rome got that nice city place on the flood plains.. still I think I will remain in peace (until I get to infantries at least )