Strengths and weaknesses of our competition: CIVs and leaders

[Calanthian]

Let's analyse the strengths and weaknesses of our competition.

These are:

1) Team WePlayCiv (Ragnar of Native Americans) > ASSESSMENT SHOULD BE IMPROVED
2) Team Civforum.de (Isabella of Inca) > ASSESSMENT SHOULD BE IMPROVED
3) Team Apolyton (Elizabeth of Ottoman) > THIS IS US
4) Team Spanish Apolyton (Boadicea of Zulu) > ASSESSMENT AVAILABLE
5) Team Civfanatics (Mansa of India) > ASSESSMENT AVAILABLE
6) Team CivPlayers (Darius of Aztec) > ASSESSMENT AVAILABLE
7) Team Realms Beyond (Pacal of Egypt)> ASSESSMENT AVAILABLE
8) Team UniversCivilization (Mehmed of Holy Rome) > ASSESSMENT AVAILABLE
9) Team Civfr (Willem of Maya) > ASSESSMENT SHOULD BE IMPROVED

[Calanthian]

1
RAGNAR of NATIVE AMERICANS (WEPLAYCIV)

*** Leader:
* Traits: AGG and FIN

*** CIV:
* Starting techs: fishing and agriculture

* UU: Dog Soldier (+100% against melee)

* UB: Totem Pole (+1 culture, archers +3)


*** OVERALL CONCLUSION:
* Strong points:

* Weak points:

* Remarks on leader / civ combination:
Great, one more ultra dangerous civ.. I start to think that going for hunin archery is not a bad idea at all.. we hould target longbowmen at some point, they are great units.


*** EXPECTED STRATEGY
* Warmongerer?: -- YES, aggressive, dog soldier, good archers
* REX? : ------------ Normal
* Tech?: ------------ Normal
* Trader?: ---------- Normal
* Builder?: ----------Normal
* Early religion?: -- NO
* Sea?: -------------YES, FIN is good at sea, cheap drydocks

[Calanthian]

2
ISABELLA of INCA (CIVFORUMDE) The Germans

*** Leader:
* Traits: SPI and EXP

*** CIV:
* Starting techs: Mysticism and Agriculture

* UU: Quecha

* UB: Terrace (Granary with culture !)

*** OVERALL CONCLUSION:
* Strong points: Quecha rush, double production speed of Terrace

* Weak points:

* Remarks on leader / civ combination:



*** EXPECTED STRATEGY
* Warmongerer?: -- YES
* REX? : ------------ YES, Terrace helps and EXP too
* Tech?: ------------ NORMAL
* Trader?: ---------- NORMAL
* Builder?: ---------- YES
* Early religion?: -- MAYBE
* Sea?: ------------- NO

[Calanthian]

3
THIS IS US

LIZZY of OTTOMANS (TEAM)

*** Leader:
* Traits: PHI and FIN

*** CIV:
* Starting techs: Wheel and Agriculture


* UU: Janissary

* UB: Hammam

*** OVERALL CONCLUSION:
* Strong points:

* Weak points:

* Remarks on leader / civ combination:



*** EXPECTED STRATEGY
* Warmongerer?: -- NO
* REX? : ------------ YES
* Tech?: ------------ YES, PHI helps with university
* Trader?: ---------- YES
* Builder?: ----------YES
* Early religion?: -- NO
* Sea?: ------------- NORMAL



Ozzy note: I have a feeling about it already, I think this civ is going to win it all.

[Calanthian]

4

BOADICEA of ZULU (SPANISH APOLYTON)

*** Leader:
* Traits: AGG and CHA

Both traits lend themselves a lot to warfare. I think we know what to expect from this team given the leader choice.



*** CIV:
* Starting techs: agriculure and hunting

* UU: Impi (2 speed spearman, which can move through any terrain)

* UB: Ikhanda (barracks - 20% maintenance)

The UB is also geared towards warfare - mass spammed early barracks are likely given the map type. The UU also makes them an early game threat. That free mobility means they are best served by spamming their early UU, getting them XP quickly with their traits, and then having strong, promoted, mobile upgraded later units.



*** OVERALL CONCLUSION:
* Strong points: fast impis, lower maintenance

* Weak points: economy and tech

* Remarks on leader / civ combination:
designed for early war

Basically, their whole strat seems geared towards early war and war often. I would be very wary of having them
as a neighbor. If we find them early, we need to have an army ready to go from the start. That said, on a "large start" toroidal map, early war is outright silly, so perhaps their heads aren't in the economic game so much (the barracks aren't going to manage toroidal maintenance at large distances).


*** EXPECTED STRATEGY
* Warmongerer?: -- YES !
* REX? : ------------ YES with lower maintenance
* Tech?: ------------ NORMAL
* Trader?: ---------- NORMAL
* Builder?: ---------- NORMAL
* Early religion?: -- NO
* Sea?: ------------- NO

[Calanthian]

5
MANSA of INDIA (CIVFANATICS)

*** Leader:
* Traits: SPI and FIN

*** CIV:
* Starting techs: Mysticism and Mining

* UU: Fast Worker

* UB: Mausoleum, spy building extraordinaire

*** OVERALL CONCLUSION:
* Strong points: Spying, fast workers

* Weak points:

* Remarks on leader / civ combination:
Good solid choice.

We should either start building spy defense against them early, or befriend them. When we would attain a tech lead: getting to Democracy early will help to make it too expensive for them. (I have learned to defend against this strategy in one of my games against Ruff > key is making the steal somewhere else cheaper).


*** EXPECTED STRATEGY
* Warmongerer?: -- NO
* REX? : ------------ NORMAL
* Tech?: ------------ STEALING TECH
* Trader?: ---------- NORMAL
* Builder?: ----------NORMAL
* Early religion?: --- MAYBE
* Sea?: ------------- NO

[Calanthian]

6
DARIUS of AZTECS (CIVPLAYERS)

*** Leader:
* Traits: FIN and ORG

Traits both lend themselves to a strong economy.
Financial: +1 commerce on plots with at least 2 commerce.
Organized: Civic upkeep reduced 50 percent. Double production speed of Lighthouse, Factory, and Courthouse.

Traits are all around decent with an edge to making money off of cottages & resource tile plus the double production speed for light houses and courthouses both compliments the financial trait plus gives them an edge in REXing.


*** CIV:
* Starting techs: Mysticism and Hunting both of which are rather weak though starting techs aren't all that important.

* UU: Jaguar

The Jaguar is the unique unit of the Aztec civilization. The Jaguar has the following differences from the Swordsman it replaces:

• -1 strength
• -5 production cost
• Does not require access to the Iron resource (but does require Iron Working)
• Starts with the Woodsman I promotion

On the upside they don't need iron to build it and it only costs 35 hammers instead of 40 (the free promotion helps too) but on the downside its strength is only 5 instead of 6.

* UB: Sacrificial Altar

The Aztecs really lend themselves to a slavery economy, though the UB will be good against the upkeep costs.
It costs 30 fewer hammers than a court house plus since they're organized they can build it at double speed. This is made for REXing plus as added bonuses they get +2 spy output, -50% unhappiness from whipping, and can turn a citizen into a spy giving them an edge in espionage. This is an excellent UB which has been paired with a leader who maxizes its value.


*** OVERALL CONCLUSION:
* Strong points: REXing by building lots of cheap courthouses fast. Also can put out more espionage points than the competition earlier in the game than the competition. Jaguar is good in wooded areas (2 moves).

* Weak points: Their UU is nice in that it doesn't need iron but it's going to be weaker than everyone else who does have iron.

* Remarks on leader / civ combination: It's a damn near perfect combination for REXing. The only one I can think of which is better is Zara of the HRE. They're a little weak on offense but they're not dependent on iron access. I'd watch out for their spy missions starting shortly after they get code of laws.

Basically, their whole strat seems geared towards REXing and economy. Likely not a big concern militarily, and a good option if we want to get an early friend. Likely a secure border.


*** EXPECTED STRATEGY
* Warmongerer?: -- PROBABLY NOT
* REX? : ------------ YES
* Tech?: ------------ NORMAL
* Trader?: ---------- NORMAL
* Builder?: ----------NORMAL
* Early religion?: -- MAYBE
* Sea?: ------------- NO

[Calanthian]

7
PACAL of EGYPT (REALMS BEYOND) Lord Parkin ..

*** Leader:
* Traits: EXP and FIN

Well, the traits lend themselves to a strong economy and REXing. We know this team to be solid in economic matters, perhaps with an insane focus on micro.

Egypt, however, really lends itself to a strong early game. A War Chariot rush is a fearsome thing to worry about, and with their two strong starting techs, they should have a powerful head start out of the gate with those and EXP/FIN.

I think this is a really strong early game and REX strategy pick, plus a real threat if we have them as a neighbor due to the UU, though more likely used as a choke than for conquest. A solid choice all-around, I think this is one of the best picks overall.


*** CIV:
* Starting techs: Wheel and Agriculture

* UU: War chariot

* UB: Obelisk



*** OVERALL CONCLUSION:
* Strong points:
chariot rush. If they have horses than an early chariot rush can be deadly.


* Weak points:
The chariot rush becomes obsolete real fast and by the time everyone has metal and horses hooked up they're not good for much other than pillaging.


* Remarks on leader / civ combination:
Since Pacal isn't charismatic they can't make the most of their UB, the expansive and financial traits do help with REXing but it's a weaker REXing combo than other civ & leader combos.

*** EXPECTED STRATEGY
* Warmongerer?: -- YES, very early if they have horses
* REX? : ------------ YES, expansive and financial
* Tech?: ------------ NORMAL
* Trader?: ---------- NORMAL
* Builder?: ----------NORMAL
* Early religion?: -- NO
* Sea?: -------------NO

[Calanthian]

8
MEHMED of HOLY ROME (UNIVERSCIVILISATION)

*** Leader:
* Traits: EXP and ORG

*** CIV:
* Starting techs: Mysticism and Hunting

* UU: Landsknecht (6, +100% mounted, +100% melee)

* UB: Rathaus (-75% maintenance)


*** OVERALL CONCLUSION:
* Strong points:
The best civ for expansion and corporations. Very low maintenance, fast production of a lot standard buildings.

* Weak points:
starting techs, culture?

* Remarks on leader / civ combination:
Rathaus can be built at twice as fast. It cuts maintenance to half what it is with a normal courthouse.

Faster worker production.
Double production speed of granary, harbor, lighthouse, factory and rathaus.


Did someone say "REX" and "upkeep"?

Both their leader and civ lend themselves to expansion. The UU is good also, though clearly their early game isn't as threatening. Their starting techs are two of the weakest, and their Uniques don't really set in until much later. I think we can expect them to want peaceful borders and NAPs for the early game, so if we have them for a neighbor that should be our approach for sure. Diplo ought to pay off well early here - and we can build on it for later in the game where they should remain competitive economically. The lack of militancy in their picks also means they should be reliable later on - they don't seem overly aggressive. A solid ally choice.


*** EXPECTED STRATEGY
* Warmongerer?: -- NO
* REX? : ------------ YES, the best !
* Tech?: ------------ YES
* Trader?: ---------- NORMAL
* Builder?: ---------- YES, FAST
* Early religion?: --- MAYBE
* Sea?: -------------- NORMAL, fast harbor production

[Calanthian]

9
WILLEM of MAYA (CIV FR) The French

*** Leader:
* Traits: CRE and FIN

Traits are all around decent without any specialization. Financial is always a strong trait. Some people here were thinking about picking creative to go along with philosophical. So while creative isn't my favorite trait, obviously lots of people like it.

*** CIV:
* Starting techs: Mysticism and Mining

* UU: Holkan
As for their UU, perhaps they are afraid of an early chariot rush (not a bad fear with Egypt in the game), or perhaps they want the flexibility of rushing a neighbor themselves.

* UB: Balcourt
With creative they get to build the Mayan UB at half price. Since their UB is +2 happy and ours is +2 happy, you can hardly call it weak. Better yet, theirs is much cheaper to build then ours, so while our UBs have the same bonus, theirs has much more synergy with their leader then ours. Our UB costs 100 hammers to build, their's costs 40. And it is 3 happy, while ours is 2 health and 2 happy, 1 extra happy is probably worth 2 health.


*** OVERALL CONCLUSION:
* Strong points:

* Weak points:

* Remarks on leader / civ combination:





*** EXPECTED STRATEGY
* Warmongerer?: -- MAYBE
* REX? : ------------ NORMAL, CRE helps
* Tech?: ------------ NORMAL
* Trader?: ---------- NORMAL
* Builder?: ----------NORMAL
* Early religion?: -- YES
* Sea?: -------------SOME, FIN is good at sea

[DNK]

1) WePlayCiv
Traits are clearly aimed at aggression, with an economic balancing.

Civ... what can I say but "early aggression"? They also get a free PRO trait for the UB. They have both the ancient aggression with a UU and the ancient defense with the UB. Agriculture and fishing should help for a quick startup, possibly with a very strong one if they get a coastal start with a water bonus. Definitely something to watch out for.

2) Civforum.de
Huh, gotta wonder if this pick wasn't in response to CFC's. Balanced in light of that.

Isabella is a solid choice for civ, and makes them more of a threat in the early game than most - a quecha rush to ensure easy expansion would be beneficial, and it's always something to watch out for. The UB+EXP combo is very nice also and should give yet another boost to their early expansion.

Otherwise, balanced choice overally, solid for expansion and the early game. I'm not sure how much concern to put on the quecha rush, as quechas are good also against barbs for fogbusting which will be a significant concern in this game it seems.


4) Spanish Apolyton
Both traits lend themselves a lot to warfare. I think we know what to expect from this team given the leader choice.

The UB is also geared towards warfare - mass spammed early barracks are likely given the map type. The UU also makes them an early game threat. That free mobility means they are best served by spamming their early UU, getting them XP quickly with their traits, and then having strong, promoted, mobile upgraded later units.

Basically, their whole strat seems geared towards early war and war often. I would be very wary of having them as a neighbor. If we find them early, we need to have an army ready to go from the start. That said, on a "large start" toroidal map, early war is outright silly, so perhaps their heads aren't in the economic game so much (the barracks aren't going to manage toroidal maintenance at large distances).


5) Civ Fanatics
Well, FIN makes sense, but SPI is a big warning sign: THEY ARE GOING TO DO SOME CIVIC SWITCH MISSIONS! Sommers, the apparent expert on it who did nothing but argue for it now picks the sole SPI leader for the game. Coincidence?

India: a strong choice for any strat with that UU, and the UB screams "espionage economy!" or something like that.


6) CivPlayers
Traits both lend themselves to a strong economy.

The Aztecs really lend themselves to a slavery economy, though the UB will be good against the upkeep costs. Again, an economic civ choice - the UU isn't worth so much, and I doubt they based their choice around the techs either.

Basically, their whole strat seems geared towards REXing and economy. Likely not a big concern militarily, and a good option if we want to get an early friend. Likely a secure border.


7) Realms Beyond
Well, the traits lend themselves to a strong economy and REXing. We know this team to be solid in economic matters, perhaps with an insane focus on micro.

Egypt, however, really lends itself to a strong early game. A War Chariot rush is a fearsome thing to worry about, and with their two strong starting techs, they should have a powerful head start out of the gate with those and EXP/FIN.

I think this is a really strong early game and REX strategy pick, plus a real threat if we have them as a neighbor due to the UU, though more likely used as a choke than for conquest. A solid choice all-around, I think this is one of the best picks overall.


8) UniversCivilization
Did someone say "REX" and "upkeep"?

Both their leader and civ lend themselves to expansion. The UU is good also, though clearly their early game isn't as threatening. Their starting techs are two of the weakest, and their Uniques don't really set in until much later. I think we can expect them to want peaceful borders and NAPs for the early game, so if we have them for a neighbor that should be our approach for sure. Diplo ought to pay off well early here - and we can build on it for later in the game where they should remain competitive economically. The lack of militancy in their picks also means they should be reliable later on - they don't seem overly aggressive. A solid ally choice.


9) Civfr
Traits are all around decent without any specialization.

I don't really get choosing the Maya... I see no real positives for any strat and a very middle-of-the-road starting tech combo. Not sure really what they're after.

Bit of an unknown here. Seems a weak pick with little flavor.

[Calanthian]

I'll copy all comments in the appropriate civ.

So go ahead and give them

[DNK]

So, out of 9 so far:
1 odd (Maya)
2 highly militaristic choices
3 economic/REX choices
1 expansion/early game choice
1 espionage economy

+ ours

1 economic/balanced choice

[mzprox]

let's look at the starting techs (one civ is missing yet, may update later)

2 Agriculture wheel
1 mysticsim agriculture
1 hunting agriculture
2 mysticism mining
2 mysticism hunting

notes:
-No one starts with fishing, this is good, because fishing is a gamble. if a financial civ starts with sea food it can get ahead in tech, so at least we don't have to worry about that and we don't risk either by choosing a civ with fishing.

-five civs start with mysticism, I wonder which ones will risk early religion. with no fishing most likely they all have the same chance. 8one would think is that the right strategy is not going for early religion, but if one assumes that everyone think that.. point is: totally unpredictable )-after giving some tought the inca (agri/myst) has the best shot for reigion, since they at least don't need to worry about idle worker syndrome.

-3 civs with hunting/scout. I wrote my concerns about early elimination at cfc, as I've expected I was turned down as it would be our fault if we left our cites undefended.. still i'd bet none of these civs will start with warrior.. anyway, these civs expected to build up a bit slower in the beginning since they lack that extra warrior. btw I really hope none of the civs will have deer :P

-2 civs start with mining (no food tech besides mining). they can just research a food tech while building a worker or go directly for bronzeworking. This latter actually a good start, they can chop out a second worker while researching a food tech and very likely every civ will have bronze in their radius

-4 civs starts with agriculture (including us) we can be almost 100% sure that we will hve at least one agri-resource, it's an expensive tech good to have it while decide on what to research

-2 civs start with wheel (+agriculture). this is not that usefull in the early phase, but it's an expensive tech and we would need it sooner or later. roads might be needed to hook up bronze/horse (at least if I was the mapmaker I wouldn't put the bronze next to river), to connect cities for trade, it's prereq for pottery but we won't go for pottery before bronzeworking.

Can't go much further before seeing the map, we can assume every civ will target bronzeworking very early, those who have no agriculture nor mining will be delayed (unless they are lucky and get deer). I think we are in good position to reach bronzeworking and build some axemen defenders if our intelligence suggests a military build up at some neighbours.
Axemen are not good against chariot rush, especially against warchariots. RB probably will play the builder game, but they won't hesitate to attack us if we seem to be easy target (if we next to them we should prepare to get hunting /spearman as soon us we suspect them going for chariots). The rest of the civs would attack with their melee UUs, those can be contered by axemen.. but we shoul still pray that we are not close to the zulu. that ci is almost destined to fail in the science contest, but most likely they will take one civ down before that.. and no one has a bigger bullseye painted on her back than our Elizabeth

[Dinner]

I have nothing useful to add but you guys sure have put a lot of effort into coming up with some pretty useful analysis. Thanks.