Domination of Barbarians [Diplo Game] [Organization Thread]

[Vikings (DoB)]

Vikings seem to have been doing some mushrooms. New management shroomfree for now...

[France (DoB)]

Game is down although civstats is still up.

[France (DoB)]

Able to login to the game again.

[China (DoB)]

Game is still down.

[Sommerswerd]

It should still be up. I just tested the connectivity and everything seems fine.

[China (DoB)]

Able to connect. Whatever was stopping it, is not now.

[France (DoB)]

Rules Comment and AI Question

Germany is the first incident of a civ resigning and apparently being left that way for the other civs to plunder. First off I would like to point out that Rule 12.1 has not been followed:

12.1. There may be a point where you feel that you have done all you can, but the game has become hopeless for you and you are no longer having fun. If this happens, first we will try some "Cold Turkey Time" to see if it helps. If not, you are expected to put forth a good faith effort to find a sub. First look for a player outside the game, then ask people playing the game to take over your Civ for you.

There was no Cold Turkey Time announced nor were people playing the game asked to take over the Civ (at least I was not). For instance, it would be in France's interest to play Germany (even if it is a hopeless cause) rather than to allow the Netherlands to capture the German capital which would allow the Netherlands to combine culture from two cities on some key tiles.

Having said all that I think it would make for a better game if civs were allowed to become permanent AI's.

Another issue occurs if a Civ razes a city (for instance if Frankfurt is still a size 1 city and Russia defeats it because it belongs to an AI then the city will be auto-razed) and then another player takes over the defending Civ and declares DMW. (In Russia's case then they would have to give up one of their cities, mostly likely a very good city in exchange for the razed Frankfurt).

I would like confirmation that Germany is going to remain permanently an AI and clarification on what is the rule in effect for Civs resigning.

[Russia (DoB)]

I have sent a PM to Sommerswerd about this.

Among the rules I look upon the rule that player civs can not be eliminated by other player civs. Even if he has left the civ for AI without an official CTT post I am for the time being treating this as Cold Turkey Time awaiting a response from Sommer.

[Sommerswerd]

France and Russia are both correct. Germany resigned in-game. We are going have CTT, starting at the end of this turn. This will give the German player a chance to PM me about the Civs viability, as well as his intentions, whether that is to reclaim Germany, swap over to a different Civ, or leave the game entirely.

If Germany is truly leader-less, and there are willing subs available, a sub can take over. If there are no willing subs, Germany stays AI and can be eliminated without restriction. Measured War rules do not, and can not apply to AI civs, precisely because of the myriad of unworkable scenarios, one of which is described by France. Obviously we cant have people resigning to AI, then intentionally or unintentionally losing cities as AI, then either returning, or passing the civ to allies so they can invoke DMW penalties.

For that reason, we just can't have players using events that happen to the AI as the basis for invoking any sort of Measured War rule. I will post again on this during the CTT with an official rule statement, but the general idea is that AI civs are fair game, and subs or new players won't be able to invoke Measured War or enforce penalties based on things that happened while the Civ was AI, or before the Civ resigned.

I will also send PMs to France and Russia addressing your concerns. Anyone else can feel free to PM me with specific questions. Thanks everyone for making this such a great game.

[England (DoB)]

Damn shame - was hoping to get Germany in on the New World rate race. Lots of Germans in Argentina you know.

[France (DoB)]

For that reason, we just can't have players using events that happen to the AI as the basis for invoking any sort of Measured War rule. I will post again on this during the CTT with an official rule statement, but the general idea is that AI civs are fair game, and subs or new players won't be able to invoke Measured War or enforce penalties based on things that happened while the Civ was AI, or before the Civ resigned.

The no getting your cities back prior to turning AI rule should be fine as long as rule 12.1 has been followed (i.e. other subs have been requested and none were available) however in this case Germany lost a city to Russia while as a player and then improperly resigned. In this case and similar cases where the 12.1 rule wasn't followed whoever subs for Germany should get their city back from a DMW declaration. That is only fair to the new sub.

[France (DoB)]

Damn shame - was hoping to get Germany in on the New World rate race. Lots of Germans in Argentina you know.

I suspect if someone takes over Germany then they will take you up on the New World offer. Germany has no hope of remaining viable in Europe but if they move to the New World then they could make a fresh start. The bidding for German cities should prove interesting...

[Sommerswerd]

Cold Turkey Time (CTT) will start at the end of the current turn (360 AD). The purpose of the CTT is to establish who will play Germany (or if it will be AI).

I will probably let the turn roll, then do a server side pause, or server side pause an hour or so before the turn rolls. It depends on how tired I am

If the turn rolls and i miss it, for whatever reason, we will reload to the beginning of the turn.

This CTT will last a maximum of 2 days. I will post here when game restarts.

[Russia (DoB)]

In this case and similar cases where the 12.1 rule wasn't followed whoever subs for Germany should get their city back from a DMW declaration. That is only fair to the new sub.

I agree to this. Taking the city was all the way a means to get the attention of the German leader and was expected to be returned a little worse for war, burning countryside and all. However, the reason for Russia's declaration of war is unresolved, so the possible new player will have many interesting decisions to make.

No doubt many of us await your update with great interest Sommer.

[Netherlands (DoB)]

I attacked Germany only because they resigned to AI and I couldn't afford to let someone else capture their cities on my border or bribe the mindless AI into war with me. HRE has already tried to stop me by gifting units to Germany, but this will not be enough to prevent me from taking the capital next turn. However if Germany is getting a real player then I have no interest in war with them and will offer a peace treaty (since I cant take a player's capital anyway). I only attacked because they were AI. If they have a player I would want peace.

The problem is France taking over means a former friend (Germany) is replaced by France and now I am surrounded by France who hates me (for no reason). Either way I will play on, but I just want to whine a little about how much it sucks for me, woa is me, woa is me!... OK done .