Destruction of Foes (DoF) - Diplogame Light

[St Jon]

I have no desire to play on a map of this kind - one that I know in advance or flat - nor with additional rules concerning seeding which simply add complexity for minuscule gain. Count me out.

[Calanthian]

Count me IN!

Really like the map.

All numbered civs can be filled with actual ancient civs..
The map of "The Ancient Mediterranean" mod is a very good one for this..
Maybe that one can be adapted..

[Calanthian]

The Ancient Mediterranean

Look at the attachments..

[2metraninja]

I think the map is somewhat OK, but I am against all those new races, resources and most important - technologies. Lets just play the good'ol Civ4 BTS. It will take some time to try and understand those new techs and units and who can guarantee that the mod is well balanced? It sounds interesting, but just dont know....

[Inca (DoE)]

Personally, I'd like to see a bunch of new resources (that have the same properties as preexisting ones or are weaker). But, then, I could go through a laundry list of things I'd like to see changed (walls being effective for all units, eg), and there's no way 13 other people are going to agree with me

And adding a mod to the game is going to ensure no one is going to get into agreement in the next 3 months unless it's a very basic mod (like we did in DoE).

Then again, new resources (if balanced) aren't very earth-shattering, and I assume we're doing some mod, if not solely for great people names

[OzzyKP]

Actually, yea, I agree with Inca. "New resources" I think would be great just for flavor reasons. Perhaps replace bananas with olives (exact same stats). Perhaps replace rice with... barley or something. Etc. Things like that purely for flavor reasons, but keep all the stats exactly the same so it won't affect balance.

I am against any new techs, and I am against that list of new civs, I think we should play stock civs as much as possible, however it won't always be possible. I think we will need a new Hungarian, Bulgarian and Israeli civ. Those are pre-made, we can all tweak the settings to ensure they are balanced. I think it would enhance the game greatly and be a fairly simple, balanced change.

[Inca (DoE)]

Since we never see leaderheads in-game, and since people can change the name attributes of their civs (or you could do that pregame), I'm not sure we even need new civs. Here's my suggestion, and I know at least most of these already have artwork done in other mods like Med and RoM/AND.

Suggested resources:

Health/food

Olives +1F/+1C, plantation: +1F/+2C +1Health (Med mod)
Barley +1F, farm: +1F +1Health (??)
Peas +1F, farm: +1F, fresh water: +1F +1Health (??)
Salt +1C, mine: +1H/+3C +1Health (Med/AND)

Happiness/commerce

Amber +1C, mine: +1H/+3C +1 (Med)
Honey +1C, camp: +1F/+2C +1 (Med)

Trade/production

Papyrus +1H/+1C, farm: +1H/+2C, paper: +2C (Med)
Flax/Hemp (Flemp) +1H/+1C, farm: +1H/+2C (Med)

[Germany (DoE)]

We've waited so long I'd be happy to wait further for a fully customized game, including significant mods.

I prefer Earth to Mediterranean and agree with some of Jon's points but am inclined to follow the inspiration and vision of ozzy and others - we need something different!

[Calanthian]

* I can imagine your position.

But I'd like to add that TAM is a fully fledged, well balanced mod on a good map:
tam dot ancient dot eu dot com (change " dot " with ".")

I'd prefer an existing, tested mod versus making a mod ourselves.


Proposal (as I don't see us agreeing on TAM):
1) * change existing map (TAM or other) with navigable rivers

2) * use existing civs

3) * maybe add an Moroccan / Mauretan civ (E) in leftcorner, or place Arabs there

4) * give players total freedom upon civ name etc..

5) * position civs based upon number of players who are competing.
As having AI's will surely debalance a game with corners.
(Unless all have similar chances to attack an AI > which would only be possible with Rome (4) and Byzantium (9) )

[2metraninja]

5) * position civs based upon number of players who are competing.

Agree.

And I think we will not have AIs at all, atleast not intentionally.

[Inca (DoE)]

The problem with using a new mod is that players that have no experience with it are at a significant disadvantage compared to those who do. It is likely that poorer players will also have a harder time adjusting than "good" players, further increasing the skill gaps.

Given that there is no tiering and it's a far more competitive game than the full diplos, weaker players and those new to MP shouldn't be having curveballs thrown at them. I agree with making an "easy" map that gives players a good chance at staying secure for a long time with "hard" areas for the expansive/good players. I think adjusting/modding for a more defensive game will help the weaker players. Stuff like castles/walls working against gunpowder (or being slightly stronger +10% each, eg), making defensive units (LBs, CBs, muskets, MGs, etc) a bit cheaper in hammers also would help, or making CG promotions 5% more per. Perhaps all of that together would overbalance towards defense (but then a good siege can be devastating long-term), but it's a "light mod" (as are new resources) that doesn't require too drastic a change, is easy to adjust to (be more defensive) for weak players (who would be defensive to begin with), and still lets the strongest players dominate (as turtling is a fairly short-term solution; longbows don't hold up well against cavalry).

New mods are nice, but I don't want to spend a few weeks learning the ins and outs. If others want it (I am new to this community, so I am not used to playing MP, so stock BtS is still "new" for me), I won't complain any further. Just airing concerns here. I'm still grappling with BtS I'm sure TAM is balanced and well-tested, but there are still concerns with a full mod.

[Calanthian]

As I said:

I don't see us agreeing on TAM

so let's drop that topic; i give up


>> can we start voting on preferences, and then decide on the map/civ positions, so we get this thing moving?

>> who is still in?

[dot80]

I am

[Toni]

I am still in.

Did I read somewhere right that someone proposed that we rotate civs? I would very much prefer to start with my civ and end with it.

[Robert]

Is this still diplo light?
using mods is not really light. neither is using tiers....!