Destiny of Empires [Diplo Game] [Organization Thread]

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

On another matter altogether, I thought ships were supposed to have double the movement with the Mod, but my galleons only move 4 squares. Did I miss something? ... Anyway, could anyone answer me the Galleon question? thanks.

Sure. As I understand it, the bonus movement only applies on ocean tiles. So when you are moving on coastal squares/inland sea squares, a Galleon will only move 4 instead of 8. It seems the way the game calculates it, is by giving you 8 movement points, but counting coastal tiles as using 2 movement points instead of 1.

Australia in return for South-East Asia? Ridiculous.

This is a serious question... why is that ridiculous?... It seems like a good comprimise to me. The fact that China had no control over Austrailia seems besides the point. What they were offering, it seems, was that they would not contest your RIGHT to settle all of Austrailia in exchange for you not contesting their RIGHT to settle SE Asia... maybe the two of you could have enven agreed to a defnsive pact that would safeguard each others rights... ie., if someone else tried to settle Australia China would help you fight them off... Anyway, that's water under the bridge.

And as you so clearly state, your ambition was to create an Asian alliance with yourself as the centre, making in effect the poorer nations (mongols, india, japan) satelites and buffer states. Only a leader with no ambition of their own would agree to such a deal.

But now I am confused... Isn't that what you have effectively agreed to by refusing to act against China?... Doesent that mean that you have no ambition? Or would you say that you are just being practical? If so why is it pracatical now but a "lack of ambition" then?... (to sit back and let China dominate, I mean)

All of this is kinda besides the point though. The real issue is of course the Mongolian situation.

So again... what is it that you expect the rest of the world to do about it? In all your "ranting" as you describe it, you still have not said what you want everyone else to do that would remedy the situation... so even if people were inclined to agree with you... nobody knows what it is you want/expect to happen. Publicly denouncing China will not save Mongolia, and China has already offered unconditional peace... 'Sigh'... I wish someone would offer me unconditional peace... More importantly, you have not said what YOU are willing to do to help remedy the situation...

And I consider it absolutely ridiculous by the rest of the world that no one sticks up for the underdog

Again... Do you include yourself in the list of "ridiculous" actors? Because the "rest of the world" includes you. How can you seriously complain that no one is sticking up for Mongolia, when you yourself are not even sticking up for them (other than with words, which are cheap).

[Russia (DoE)]

America Very, very good said. And India, dont be so categorically. Not everithing is black and white. And not all of your statements are 100% true.

[America (DoE)]

Which is in my opinion unbalanced... I am an experienced diplo player and I have numerous times fought as the small against the large and it never ends well. The big civs simply drag the war out until their greater production and tech starts counting and then the smaller civ(s) are defeated and the situation even worse than when it began. Both of Mongolia's war with China illustrate this once again.

Just my two cents; I understand your frustration, however, I must add that what you describe as having happened numerous times in diplo games sounds inevitable. Of course there will always be a few bigger nations after a while; small advantages end up growing into big advantages. My idea about a diplo game is however that your position in points and power is not really relevant. It's more about how you use that position to exert influence through diplomacy, and the fun you have in coming up with storylines regarding your crappy situation. If everything would remain balanced throughout the game, it would be quite strange, right? It seems you are a bit too hung up about what the big boys do; they're the big boys, which means it is more or less their job to frustrate us little guys by exerting their influence I'd say situations like this make the game more 'real'. Imagine the roles you can play as frustrated neighbor, the plots you could hatch with others that could go horribly wrong, the drama, the suspense, the horror

[India (DoE)]

On another matter altogether, I thought ships were supposed to have double the movement with the Mod, but my galleons only move 4 squares. Did I miss something?

Response to China: You can not honestly say you had the same opportunities as your core lands are far richer. Starting a war in the early stages of the game against a civ that has forests (while India had jungles), lots of hills (while India has hardly any), and the Protective trait is practically useless. Add to it that you had Bronze in Beijing and an alliance with Japan simply makes it near impossible to challenge you. And as for your deal offered, Australia in return for South-East Asia? Ridiculous. Besides, you were offering something you had no control over, shown by the fact that you could have done nothing about England settling it before both me and Japan (who were actively trying to do so). I am not so dumb that I can be bought off with a cat in a bag...

And as you so clearly state, your ambition was to create an Asian alliance with yourself as the centre, making in effect the poorer nations (mongols, india, japan) satelites and buffer states. Only a leader with no ambition of their own would agree to such a deal.

The point of my rants was to point out that there is a rather large discrepancy in land value between central China and that of its neighbours. Now that area may of course be necessary to fend off numerous enemies, but it should also be noted that the bordering areas are also exceedingly rich (Manchuria and South-East Asia). I think it is rather imbalanced that you should have access to so much rich land so early on with so few obstacles. Now it should be noted that the original Indian player was incompetent and everything I have done since I took over has been an attempt to balance out a very sad state of affairs caused by the absentness during the crucial first 50-100 turns. I don't remember exactly when I took over. But the fact is that the original Indian left the country in such a sad state (and with such natural hinders) as to make challenging China by my military-genius mind ( ) a mathematical impossibility. Which is in my opinion unbalanced... I am an experienced diplo player and I have numerous times fought as the small against the large and it never ends well. The big civs simply drag the war out until their greater production and tech starts counting and then the smaller civ(s) are defeated and the situation even worse than when it began. Both of Mongolia's war with China illustrate this once again. Which is why a huge territorial advantage is imbalanced.

All of this is kinda besides the point though. The real issue is of course the Mongolian situation. I can not see how the Mongols can find fun in the game being squeezed between two superpowers who strive to keep them down and refuse to negotiate or make any concessions. I consider it almost poor form for the strongest player who after losing 2 peripheral cities to the dead-last civ then buckles up, recruits a giant army and goes after them. And I consider it absolutely ridiculous by the rest of the world that no one sticks up for the underdog, but continue to support the great. Which we see again and again. I guess I am just fed up with the short-sightedness of the world...

Anyway, could anyone answer me the Galleon question? thanks.

[Germany (DoE)]

The turn timer seems to long. The last few turns Arabia has not pressed enter and a few others not involved in war have either not logged in or not pressed enter.

Can we go back to 24 hour timer?

[France (DoE)]

I second that emoticon

So said 'Smokey Robinson and the Miracles', a leading act of Athena but well known throughout Europe. Sometimes love can bring us together.

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

I second that emoticon

[France (DoE)]

Well said, China.

[China (DoE)]

OK...

I don't want to say too much because 1- I think people that are responding to India are saying the kind of things I would say and 2- I don't want to point out some of the ways to challenge me because, believe me, they exist haha!

However, I do feel compelled to add my thoughts.

Diplomacy

This is my second diplo game, first was DoC, and I feel safe saying I am truly a tier 3 player. I learned lots from my first game and wanted to apply strategy to this one. I knew that my neighbours would all be tier 3 like me so I immediately wanted to make peace, even partnership with anyone I could to take advantage of our advantage at the start, while tier 1/2 players fought. I really thought that later in the game the top couple victors from Europe would turn to the resource rich tier 3/4 areas so I wanted to be ready for that.

The only neighbour nation to really respond to my diplo at first was Japan. In an effort to really show I wanted to partner up, among other things, I gifted my first GP, which allowed them to build their Holy Shrine early on, I converted all my cities to Buddhism, tried to spread Buddhism, gifted them resources etc. As such, of course they came to my side when the war with Mongolia started.

My goal was always for a unified Asia, with China as the powerhouse supporting its neighbours.

Land Situation

Of course I wanted to choke India off at Guangzou, but that took a huge risk on my part. It is fairly far from my capital and the route was all jungle, so slow travelling. I was ready for an Indian war at that point...it never came, and I was able to settle the entire peninsula, mission accomplished.

Regarding Mongolia, one thing no one has mentioned is that Mongolia had LOTS of room to settle East of their capital and North East of mine. Not only did they build pyramids rather than settle these areas, they also allowed me to build 2 buffer cities between them and my capital. 1 of these cities was about my 4th I believe and the other on was MUCH later in the game. They have also allowed Russia to settle in what I would have thought would be their land, so their actions are peculiar.

Closing Thoughts

India, it's really not fair what you're doing here. I had the same opportunities that you did. In fact, Japan and I detailed a very extensive plan to have an alliance between the 3 of us that among other things, would have given you access to all of Australia to settle and even the transportation and workers to do so!! You had many choices you made and you cannot cry now that things didn't work out how you had planned.

The thing I love about this game and playing with these people is that not only are they very good at the game but they're quite intelligent as well. To think that you can just expect things to turn out how you planned is a very foolish endeavor!

I am still open to a unified Asia and want to be partners with both India and Mongolia. PM me what you want and let's find a mutually beneficial course of action.

Or try your luck with war hehe!

[Native America (DoE)]

Dream walkin', pillow talkin'
She's calling my name again.
Day's breaking, I ain't wakin' up
I'm sleepin' in.
I'm on a roll now, I've gotta know how this dream ends.

[France (DoE)]

OK France, I am all done... In more ways than one. Turn is finished with a few minutes to spare in the first half of the Timer. As you will see I was grieviously backstabbed... so if you had anything to do with that... well played

Anyway, the turn is all yours, but please read my peace offer first... I expect I will be doing a lovely write up in the Story thread... what a story

I salute you! Your spirit and sportsmanship are first class.

And that was quite a battle!

I have not logged in yet, but I will probably accept, but that is only because I am madly in love with Aysecan.

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

OK France, I am all done... In more ways than one. Turn is finished with a few minutes to spare in the first half of the Timer. As you will see I was grieviously backstabbed... so if you had anything to do with that... well played

Anyway, the turn is all yours, but please read my peace offer first... I expect I will be doing a lovely write up in the Story thread... what a story

[Inca (DoE)]

Corn! Crabs! Coconuts!

[France (DoE)]

@ France - Ottomans might need a little extra time to finish this turn. I might be logging in and out but when I am actually done I will hit 'END TURN.' OK?

Just wanted to give a heads up out of respect and courtesy

Thanks and understood.

Although I can't imagine what what there is to think about ....

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

No production and little food as it was all jungle. How does a country like that throw together an army to fight a civ which has a tech and army lead??

One idea, is that since you are Philosophical, you could try selling/trading Great People for the units you need... workers to chop that jungle you keep complianing about, settlers to settle that unsettled land in the South maybe even get a second stronghold going in Austrailia, or even technologically advanced Army... The point is that there were ways to go about it... it just depends on the Civ/leader and what your situation is, but there is always a way.

EVERY nation I have talked to have said: Sorry, they are our friends/they are too powerful/we have nothing to gain/it is to risky, etc. Every nation.

Now that statement is just False on its face... Are you saying that the MONGOLS refused to cooperate with you to contain China?!? Or are you saying you never asked the Mongols?

So I have continued my peaceful development and hoped that the giant in the east stay away from me as long as I stay away from it.

Anyway, as I said before, that sounds like a great strategy, since as you say... your situation is hopeless. I really do not have any problem with the approach you have settled upon... non aggression towards China is perfectly fine with me and understandable, given your position, or at least your perception of your position. My point is just that it seems like bad form to call OOC for other nations to intervene against China for an IG reason like "Mongols are losing the War and China is getting too powerful"... ESPECIALLY when you are unwilling to do so yourself.