Destiny of Empires [Diplo Game] [Organization Thread]

[Israel (DoE)]

Russia took Tel Aviv, my capital.
This game is not fun for me anymore (refering to the explanation of a diplo game).
All 'measured war' rules have been broken. I wonder if Russia and Turkey even have read the terms of a diplo game.

I will not call for a measured war vote and I will just continue to play this game.
I will just continue the game and try to find some fun somewhere.
But Israel is completely cripled right now. Most of it's most important cities are gone, occupied or occupied in the past resulting in most buildings gone.

The list is:
- Jerusalem (holy city in early game: early game development hugely harmed)
- Tel Aviv (capital, most important scientific city, piramids city)
- Ekron (Razed 3 times)
- Hebron (occupied and returned)
- Sidon (occupied by Mali)
- Nain (occupied by Turks)

Israel has now 3 cities left over that were never occupied.

Israel is in a war with two civs that are just not accepting any reasonable terms for peace.
All they want is a terrible load of money that will criple Israel even more.
When Ekron was requested, Ekron was offered by Israel, but then it was rejected.
Then Israel offered a lot of money, which was rejected.
Now Israel offered the holy city of christianity, which produces a huge load of money. It was rejected again.
It's not as if Israel is stubborn and doesn't want to comply.
Israel has already capitulated many times, but Russia/Turkey just do not care and want to criple Israel beyond reasonable diplo limits.

This is not what diplogames are about and it's clearly defined in the rules/definitions of this game.
Many times I have raised this issue, but it was ignored all the time.

I am bringing it up to make clear that the fun for me is totally gone.
The diplo spirit is completely broken. This is not a diplogame anymore.
I will continue nonetheless.

Some phrases from the rules and definitions from the main post of this thread:

Dictionary of Terms; measured war:

2. This is Diplo - No civilisation should be crippled with the result that the game stops being fun for the player involved. This means that there is a balance to be struck. War is costly for the aggressor, building up forces while other nations race ahead, so the victor should be able to make real gains from the war. But if they gain too much, the loser may be crippled. Its impossible to make a hard and fast rule out of this, because that can just be exploited (e.g. a loser refusing to make a reasonable peace because 'the rule' will then kick in and save them). But as a guide, a 25% loss is an appropriate threshhold (loss being an overall measure, not just a city count - losing 3 tiny fringe cities may be much less of a loss than 1 major city). More than this may well be crippling the loser. But a loss/gain up to this probably is appropriate benefit for the victor. Again this can't be a rule - taking a small bite out of a neighbour every ten turns will cripple them, but having won a war against a neighour a millenium ago doesn't mean you can't fight with them again.

Dictionary of Terms; Diplomacy Game:

Another purpose of the game is to keep it interesting for everybody. Nations won't be annihilated or broken in such a way that the fun is gone for a player. On the other hand, players must be willing to compromise when losing a war and be willing to accept terms of their enemy.

For the record: I do not want anything to be undone. The game is going as it's going. OOC influences on the game suck. We will just let this war continue. But please do not do this to other civs. England has been hurt way too much as well, though England is still a world class subtop civ.

Keep in mind that these games last for months. People invest in it.
Civilization is a game where it's easy to gang up on another civ with 3 players in such a way that that civ has no chance in hell to win. We have diplogames to prevent this from happening in very long games where people invest so much into.

[Robert]

Game's up again.

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

Aaargh, I found a person who let me use their mobile hotspot quickly, but now I just realized that I cant play anyway because of the Admin pause...

Oh well, maybe some other time

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

In fairness to France, this is my impression of the situation. Israel rebuilt Ekron after I told them not to. Instead of just razing it I pmed them and told them my demands and ultimatims etc. I also asked that in consideration of me giving them advance warning, they allow me to move first... IF and only if they were rejecting my ultimatims(which would mean war, which of course I knew Russians would probably join). I asked for this consideration primarily, because I knew full well that if Israel had first move, it would create the current situation where Russians wait for Israel, and France waits for Russians, pushing France further into the bottom of the turn.

To be fair to Israel, I did not and could not tell them my real reasons for requesting first move, for strategic reasons, as it would have given away Russians likely participation in the war. So it was reasonable for Israel to assume that I wanted first move so I could attack and kill the one unit they had guarding Ekron. I had no intention whatsoever of doing this, as it would have been a suicide mission with the whole Israeli army present nearby. Israel could have figured this out, as I asked them to move their unit to allow me to raze the offending city as part of an agreement... which they rejected obviously.

So since Israel was convinced that I was prepared to launch a suicide attack against Ekron they argued forcefully that they should have the first move, cited the rules about pre war movement. They even tried to log in as soon as the turn rolled, (although I beat them into the game ) to deny me the chance to move into first position. They listened to my arguments about how it was a request in consideration of me giving them advance notice etc., but ultimately, I think that they were so convinced that if only they could move first, they would be able to move their whole army into Ekron and prevent me from taking it... So that's what they did, over my objections. Of course there wad no way for them to know that I really didn't want to attack Ekron anyway, I just wanted them to give it up willingly... so they came to the conclusion that it was ALL important for them to move first, because otherwise they would lose Ekron.

So thats my impression of what happened. Israel feel free to correct me if I said anything wrong or unfair.

BTW I am currently Out of town with no ability to play AFAICT. I was hoping to play last night before I left. I waited 5 hrs past when I was supposed to leave in order to give Israel time to move but alas... here we are. So I appreciate everyone's patience as I try to find some way to play.

[England (DoE)]

Well the solution is for Russia/Ottomans to hurry up and finish off Israel, then there won't be any timer issues.



(or for France to just surrender)

[Russia (DoE)]

As our host said to me once wisely when I asked the game to be extended somehow, as I was waiting for diplomatic response from someone, sometimes the time is our friend and sometimes it is our enemy ( I dont remember the exact words, but that was the meaning).

I dont blame you for waiting, just I want to be sure this does not disadvantage our alliance and hence the pause request

[Israel (DoE)]

I did not insist on moving first.
But when the Ottomans wanted to attack me, I told them that they should wait till I moved b/c otherwise it would have been a double move and thus against the rules.

The reason that I waited so long to move this turn is b/c I was waiting for an answer from Turkey/Russia since they are in front of Tel Aviv. It makes sense that Russia asks for a pause.
I do not see why Russia and Turkey need to coordinate their moves. Tel Aviv has emptied, there's nothing to coordinate.
All you guys have to decide if you take the peace offer and Bethlehem, or if you want to take Tel Aviv. (Or if you stop dancing on the head of the shrink)

[France (DoE)]

Lovely 40 hour turn timer we have

Well, the upside is that no one has any reason to miss their turn.

[France (DoE)]

Nothing is ridiculous in the situation. It is only slightly annoying that we had to wait 23 hours for Israel to take his turn. As It happened to me to be at work while this happen with 5.5 hours left on the timer and 6-7 hours more before I get home to play, I think nothing extraordinary happened when I asked for a pause.

We may be better off playing this via pbem.

I was not aware that Israel had taken that long. Sorry.

But it has been annoying to have to continually adapt my RL so that I am available for that last hour or so to play in, which btw, leaves me no time whatsoever for input from my allies, who play at radically different times than me.

[France (DoE)]

P.S. I am all OK with you moving before me,because Israel insisted to move first and as you know I support block moving, but England might want somehow the no-double-moving to be assured.

Given the current situation with England, it will likely be sometime before we can reverse the play order.

But it would make sense - bloc moves.

[Russia (DoE)]

Either you have to accept not to move anything in Western Europe and Africa this turn and then if England approves, you to move first in the next turn, but as I see England is sparsely available these last days and not posting too much, it may take some time before they actually approve you to move 2 times in a row.

As far as I know, other possible solution to this is you just to skip this turn and to move first in the next.

[Russia (DoE)]

P.S. I am all OK with you moving before me,because Israel insisted to move first and as you know I support block moving, but England might want somehow the no-double-moving to be assured.

[Russia (DoE)]

Nothing is ridiculous in the situation. It is only slightly annoying that we had to wait 23 hours for Israel to take his turn. As It happened to me to be at work while this happen with 5.5 hours left on the timer and 6-7 hours more before I get home to play, I think nothing extraordinary happened when I asked for a pause.

[France (DoE)]

Wit all due respect to Russia and Turkey - this is ridiculous. The Vikings and and I were able to co-ordinate moves without having to play at the same time. And leaving me the last 60 minutes or so to play in a 28 hour or longer turn timer is really not fair. I have RL things on the go as well.

At the first possible opportunity, I request that I be able to play first during a turn. I have played last for quite awhile now, and frankly, this is getting old.

[Inca (DoE)]

Lovely 40 hour turn timer we have