Destiny of Empires [Diplo Game] [Setup Thread]

[The Priest]

Sorry not to have been part of the conversation - I've been away though I have voted by email.

Three thoughts about the OHS (ozzy handicap system).

1. I agree with the sentiment of trying to ensure everyone has a good game with fair opportunities.

2. I'm not sure if there is a genuine logic in the plan though. The last two diplo games have been won in-game, if I remember rightly, by newbies. I don't deny that there are some very skilled at getting the most out of the engine, and on average they will tend to do well, but is it really as predictable as this is implying? I'd hate us to find that in DoE, as in BtP and DoC someone not seen as 'one of the top players' wins in game and everyone just says 'well they got an easy start by being in tier 3'.

3. I worry that this handicaping will have the opposite effect on the actual game scoring (e.g the votes). Because we are in danger of putting the 'top players' in close prximity to each other, which will mean they have great opportunities for stories and diplomacy from day 1, while the person supposedly given the easier civ of native america will find themselves on their own for millenium, which makes it almost impossible to write good stories/diplo and hence get votes. So i fear we will actually, inadvertently, be giving a huge advantage to the 'top players'.

[Robert]

Welcome all back, guys!
I'm glad that we can discuss things again, this e-mail thing was quite a pain.

I think it may be better to discuss the game a bit more here. Several of you have sent me e-mails. Please post these thoughts here.
I am myself right now about unable to participate. I'm in a hotel in Cologne, visiting the GamesCom, having handson civilization 5 sessions, interviewing Firaxians, taking fotoshoots with live models of Civ5 leaders, watching hot babes in other game stands, and working on Apolyton articles, videos, etc. etc. It's quite a pain but somebody has to do it.

I'll join the debates later this week

Robert from GamesCom

[Dubhghlas]

Don't forget to post pictures of hot babes, Robert!

[trev]

I suppose I am one of the better players. so tier 1 or 2 will do

[OzzyKP]

2. I'm not sure if there is a genuine logic in the plan though. The last two diplo games have been won in-game, if I remember rightly, by newbies. I don't deny that there are some very skilled at getting the most out of the engine, and on average they will tend to do well, but is it really as predictable as this is implying? I'd hate us to find that in DoE, as in BtP and DoC someone not seen as 'one of the top players' wins in game and everyone just says 'well they got an easy start by being in tier 3'.

There are one or two genuinely new players in this game and I think they have ranked themselves in tier 2. Plus, those of us creating their own lists have suspected they may be sleepers like mxprox, so were going to rank them higher. That is different however than people who have played in half a dozen diplogames and time after time always find themselves to be leading small, backwards civs that get pushed around by their neighbors. I don't think we'll be perfect in placing people into proper tiers, but I think we should at least try. Just scrambling people randomly will ensure that some top player will get an easy start in China or South Africa. So why not at least try?

3. I worry that this handicaping will have the opposite effect on the actual game scoring (e.g the votes). Because we are in danger of putting the 'top players' in close prximity to each other, which will mean they have great opportunities for stories and diplomacy from day 1, while the person supposedly given the easier civ of native america will find themselves on their own for millenium, which makes it almost impossible to write good stories/diplo and hence get votes. So i fear we will actually, inadvertently, be giving a huge advantage to the 'top players'.

Few players will be truly alone. Native America has quite a lot more breathing room and should be able to expand at a more leisurely pace than Europeans, but I expect they will meet the Aztecs and Americans in the first 20-30 turns. So there will be opportunity for interaction and story telling. Plus, when someone is surrounded by big powers and crippled from the start they get too frustrated to tell stories. Plus, 'top players' are top not just through skill with the mechanics of civ (though mostly) they are also top because of their shrewd diplomacy. They are pretty good at getting their way through skill or cunning. They have adapted to the format of the game and many of the top players are also the top story tellers, role players and diplomats. I hate to say this, but the less skilled players generally don't engage in story telling and diplomacy as much as the top players anyhow. Will the top players have a richer environment for it by being packed together? Yes, but I think things will work out the same as they would have otherwise. Just more balance this way.

[The Priest]

You might be right, you probably are.

I do understand that its easier to enjoy and feel a full part of the game, and participate in stories and votes, when you are at least doing reasonably in-game. So yes the desire to avoid certain civs being 'strangled at birth'. So yes if we play with quite a lot of european civs, of whose players are great at early expansion and some aren't, that could be a problem.

But this is a diplo game. It doesn't make sense to approach the idea of handicaps as if it is a standard game where the aim is to win in-game. OK native americans may contact a couple of civs in 20-30 turns, but their ongoing interaction with them will be minor for 100 or more. Meanwhile those lucky enough to be in europe will be rolling in opportunities for diplomacy and interaction, and I bet will end up rolling in votes as a result.

I don't have an alternative proposal, which is lame I know. Though I guess we should just choose the civs which are playable so that they are more equal (i.e. thin out europe etc.), and recognise that those will few neighbours might be able to expand in a more relaxed way, but will have problems in diplo, and remember that we have cut any connection between in-game score and diplo-victory, and just get on with it, and if we think it can't work, we don't play on a world map.

But maybe I am the only one who sees the potential problem - if so, just ignore!

[OzzyKP]

Perhaps we could not vote for the first month? Or lump the first two months together when it comes to voting?

I am strongly against thinning out Europe and strongly against ditching the world map. We've been playing Civ4 diplogames for what, 5 years now? Not once have we done a real world map(I guess our very first two abortive attempts were on world maps, but those didn't last long). Real world maps were my favorite part of diplogames back in the Civ2 days. It is an absolute tragedy that we've abandoned them for so long.

[Robert]

Don't forget to post pictures of hot babes, Robert!

There you go! Not only are these babes hot, they are IMPORTANT world leaders in Civilization V!!!!

[Rempedaalops]

Cleopatra, agagagagagagurgle...

[Robert]

I'm sorry mate, I got exclusive rights on her now.

Hey, and what about Firaxis cool feature to also include FUTURE great world leaders! (the one in the middle, in case you were wondering)

[OzzyKP]

The one with the deranged look?

[The Priest]

Hey, and what about Firaxis cool feature to also include FUTURE great world leaders! (the one in the middle, in case you were wondering)

And what are your characteristics? Creative (or fantasy?) and spiritual (it would take a miracle?)

[St Jon]

Perhaps we could not vote for the first month? Or lump the first two months together when it comes to voting?

I am strongly against thinning out Europe and strongly against ditching the world map. We've been playing Civ4 diplogames for what, 5 years now? Not once have we done a real world map(I guess our very first two abortive attempts were on world maps, but those didn't last long). Real world maps were my favorite part of diplogames back in the Civ2 days. It is an absolute tragedy that we've abandoned them for so long.

I have been opposed to a world map from the start as it invariably gives African/American Civs a massive advantage. Asian Civs given a reasonable chance but European very poor odds. To pack 5 in there is little short of sadistic!

The Map will need to be truly Gigantic and will also have to be a masterpiece for this to succeed.

[St Jon]

There you go! Not only are these babes hot, they are IMPORTANT world leaders in Civilization V!!!!

Is Cleopatra stroking your bottom?

And I thought you were a happily married man!

[Black Knight 427]

So when we get to pic our civs?