Destiny of Empires [Diplo Game] [Setup Thread]

[St Jon]

Your seeding system has much going for it Ozzy but I do have a few quibbles.

My record in Diplo is very poor, albeit I have only played 1 and 1/2, as opposed to Kill or be Killed where an early close neighbour will simply die. I think you rank me too highly and should be in the bottom group.

You do not mention Pinchak but though he would not be a bottom group player there should be a clear ban on him taking Maya as he always will if given the chance.

I do not see Toroidal as being silly on Earth as, after all, it is Toroidal unless we have a Topologist or two in the game. I cannot think that the intellectual level I have encountered on Poly would indicate that such a person would be likely to be found amongst us.

Russia is the perennial problem as unless faced by strong neighbours, as close as can be, it has a free licence to breed like a rabbit. Get a halfway capable player in there and it will quickly run riot.

I fear, even for Priest, that England will prove too much. If anyone gets Germany then it should be 'best of the rest' as it has a lot to go for in the east without worry about being hemmed in.

Totally new players will for certain be given the plums but that ignores the fact that 'new' <> 'bad'. If mzprox had joined BtP at the beginning he would have got a real plum, under this system, and he is anything but poor. This new kiddie 'exploit' may only be talking a good game but he does not strike me as ignorant of how to play a good game.

Map design would have to be done superbly with jungle, desert and tundra only where they really were and likewise early resources. Rather than mere cramping in Europe you could have an Arabia devoid of resources until oil and forced to expand or fade into total obscurity. Massive rain-forest to the east and poor land at home would stop Inca from becoming a monster. It comes back to Russia who will have it all from first turn to last.

Just idle ramblings, which went on far too long I know, but still, in my view, areas of concern.

[Robert]

I needed some time, and many utter defeats, but finally I am listed among the 'top players' 8)
Fortunately nobody knows that I was France in DoD

----

St Jon raises good points.
I agree that other 'newbies' at Diplomacy may be good at Civ as well.
On the other hand though, that doesn't mean it's not fun to put all those guys who were in the top of the past games together.

But all in Europa may be a bit too much, what about:
[Celts|England] / [Vikings] / [Egypt] / [Rome|Greece|Germany] / [Ottomans|Byzantium]
Those nations all border each other more or less.

Then for Asia:
Russia, Mongols, China, India, Japan, Korea, Persia

And Africa:
Zulu, Mali, Ethiopia

Then we do indeed leave the new world open, place many barbarians there, or we place a couple of AI there....

[St Jon]

I needed some time, and many utter defeats, but finally I am listed among the 'top players' 8)
Fortunately nobody knows that I was France in DoD

Cyber, a France controlled by you would have lasted a lot longer. It does however, also make a good illustration of how skill levels differ in different formats. I am doing pretty well in DoD - far better than BtP or DoC - due to freedom just to ignore being 'nice' even if I am always merciful.

You also find that with many very good established players in there only there are only 2 genuine superpowers and 1 of them is a 'newbie'.

But all in Europa may be a bit too much, what about:
[Celts|England] / [Vikings] / [Egypt] / [Rome|Greece|Germany] / [Ottomans|Byzantium]
Those nations all border each other more or less.

Then for Asia:
Russia, Mongols, China, India, Japan, Korea, Persia

And Africa:
Zulu, Mali, Ethiopia

Then we do indeed leave the new world open, place many barbarians there, or we place a couple of AI there....

I do still come back to Russia. If you are going to have established good players pushed together then the established poor players, note established not newbie, must be getting the real goodies. I won't name any examples for fear of causing offence but we know who they are. Russia must go to a known weak player as well as the African nations with all that lovely room to expand. The Newbies could get the rest at random.

BTW. I would take the Ottomans, whatever skill range it was classed in, any day of the week on a Gigantic Map with lots of free space they could quickly become a right little power-house and even cause Russia some problems.

[deity]

I've just quickly read through here...

I like it ozzy -nicely thought out - but also think a bigger Earth like Toni says.

Don't forget to put mz in Iceland if he plays...

And what about new players who you can't rate?

I think that dealing with helping the less experienced players is long overdue.

Great having your energy back on board ozzy and if you get Capo involved, even better!

---

I am worried about the discrepancy between the volume of story posts and think it should be controlled somehow.

[OzzyKP]

I was thinking there would be four tiers for civ placement.

Tier 1 - Europe
Tier 2 - Around Europe (Russia, Mideast, North Africa)
Tier 3 - Asia & Africa
Tier 4 - Americas

Your point about Exploit is very well taken. He certainly seems to have a certain poise that could indicate skill in the game. I was thinking of putting him in Tier 3.

As for the map, I was thinking we could use a stripped down version of Rhye's mod. The complicated things (rising and falling, stability, UHV, etc) will be removed (somehow), but the map/mod was very carefully crafted to address the problems we are expecting. There are marsh tiles that can never be developed upon. There are several of these in Siberia & the Amazon to slow growth there. Also, jungle cannot be entered by normal units and cannot be removed until biology which also slows growth.

It would require me (or Capo or someone) to strip out all the complicated stuff from the mod (again, somehow) and you guys would have to put up with using a mod for the game, but I think it would solve our map problems nicely. The basic features of the mod also boosts ship movement (very, very nice to have on a world map) and tweaks some wonders and such. It should be well worth it and the best way to achieve balance.

[Robert]

Wouldn't it be very difficult to make that mod ready for a 'normal' diplo game? Did nobody do it before?

[Rempedaalops]

I like the idea, it's cool! I'm looking forward to seeing whether other players thought I was utter crap, or just very crappy in the last game

[OzzyKP]

Wouldn't it be very difficult to make that mod ready for a 'normal' diplo game? Did nobody do it before?

Difficult. Perhaps not very difficult though. If Capo helped it'd be easier.

And Rempedaalops, I'm thinking perhaps that people should start out by sorting themselves into the list. Hopefully everyone will honestly assess their own talent, experience and skill in the game. If people are trying to game the system we can fix it, but I think a self-assessment is probably the best place to start.

I'll start by adding my name. Put your own name in above or below mine depending on how skilled you are at diplogames.


List of players ordered by skill level:

OzzyKP

[Robert]

hehehehe, this is fun!

List of players ordered by skill level:

Robert Plomp
OzzyKP

[Robert]

All please vote for the following game options:


1. Should the map contain Tribal Villages
a. YES
b. NO

2. Will the map contain New Worlds to explore where no civilization starts?
a. YES
b. NO

3. Tribal Villages Location:
If the vote result to Question 1 and 2 are YES, then where will these appear
a. Old World AND New World
b. Old World Only
c. New World Only

4. Map Type
A. Random map (made by mzprox)
B. Random map with Torroidal wrap (made by mzprox)
C. Earth map

5. Random Events
A. ON
B. OFF

6. Tech Trading
A. Open Tech Trading
B. No Tech Brokering
C. No Tech Trading

7. If the poll result for Question 6 is A or B, do you then want a voucher system?
A. YES
B. No, unlimited trading

8. Vassals
A. Yes
B. No

9. Should we give a penalty to players who accuse anybody from cheating/bad form/etc. in an OOC way? (any penalty will be determined later)
A. YES
B. NO, just remove these posts

10. Timer*
A. First 150 turns 8 hours, after that 12 hours
B. First 150 turns 12 hours, after that 18 hours
C. First 150 turns 12 hours, after that 24 hours
D. 24 hours

* The number of votes for D should be bigger then A,B,C combined to win for D to win
The number of votes for C should be bigger then A,B combined and bigger then D for C to win

11. Game Speed
A NORMAL
B. EPIC if Poll Question 10 results in A, otherwise NORMAL
C. EPIC

[Robert]

My picks: (immediately update the number of votes)
-----------------

Voted:
- Robert Plomp

-----------------
1. Should the map contain Tribal Villages
a. YES - 1
b. NO - 0

2. Will the map contain New Worlds to explore where no civilization starts?
a. YES - 0
b. NO - 1

3. Tribal Villages Location:
If the vote result to Question 1 and 2 are YES, then where will these appear
a. Old World AND New World - 0
b. Old World Only - 1
c. New World Only - 0

4. Map Type
A. Random map (made by mzprox) - 0
B. Random map with Torroidal wrap (made by mzprox) - 0
C. Earth map - 1

5. Random Events
A. ON - 1
B. OFF - 0

6. Tech Trading
A. Open Tech Trading - 0
B. No Tech Brokering - 0
C. No Tech Trading - 1

7. If the poll result for Question 6 is A or B, do you then want a voucher system?
A. YES - 1
B. No, unlimited trading - 0

8. Vassals
A. Yes - 0
B. No - 1

9. Should we give a penalty to players who accuse anybody from cheating/bad form/etc. in an OOC way? (any penalty will be determined later)
A. YES - 0
B. NO, just remove these posts - 1

10. Timer*
A. First 150 turns 8 hours, after that 12 hours - 1
B. First 150 turns 12 hours, after that 18 hours - 0
C. First 150 turns 12 hours, after that 24 hours - 0
D. 24 hours

* The number of votes for D should be bigger then A,B,C combined to win for D to win
The number of votes for C should be bigger then A,B combined and bigger then D for C to win

11. Game Speed
A NORMAL - 0
B. EPIC if Poll Question 10 results in A, otherwise NORMAL - 1
C. EPIC - 0

[OzzyKP]

Voted & Ranked by Skill Level:
- Robert Plomp
- OzzyKP

-----------------
1. Should the map contain Tribal Villages
a. YES - 2
b. NO - 0

2. Will the map contain New Worlds to explore where no civilization starts?
a. YES - 1 (Australia)
b. NO - 1

3. Tribal Villages Location:
If the vote result to Question 1 and 2 are YES, then where will these appear
a. Old World AND New World - 1
b. Old World Only - 1
c. New World Only - 0

4. Map Type
A. Random map (made by mzprox) - 0
B. Random map with Torroidal wrap (made by mzprox) - 0
C. Earth map - 2

5. Random Events
A. ON - 2
B. OFF - 0

6. Tech Trading
A. Open Tech Trading - 0
B. No Tech Brokering - 0
C. No Tech Trading - 2

7. If the poll result for Question 6 is A or B, do you then want a voucher system?
A. YES - 2
B. No, unlimited trading - 0

8. Vassals
A. Yes - 1 (but no strong feelings either way)
B. No - 1

9. Should we give a penalty to players who accuse anybody from cheating/bad form/etc. in an OOC way? (any penalty will be determined later)
A. YES - 0
B. NO, just remove these posts - 2

10. Timer*
A. First 150 turns 8 hours, after that 12 hours - 2 (though I'd prefer 16-18 after)
B. First 150 turns 12 hours, after that 18 hours - 0
C. First 150 turns 12 hours, after that 24 hours - 0
D. 24 hours

* The number of votes for D should be bigger then A,B,C combined to win for D to win
The number of votes for C should be bigger then A,B combined and bigger then D for C to win

11. Game Speed
A NORMAL - 0
B. EPIC if Poll Question 10 results in A, otherwise NORMAL - 2
C. EPIC - 0

[Exploit]

Voted & Ranked by Skill Level:
- Robert Plomp
- OzzyKP
- Exploit
-----------------
1. Should the map contain Tribal Villages
a. YES - 3
b. NO - 0

2. Will the map contain New Worlds to explore where no civilization starts?
a. YES - 2 (Australia but Americas should be populated)
b. NO - 1

3. Tribal Villages Location:
If the vote result to Question 1 and 2 are YES, then where will these appear
a. Old World AND New World - 2
b. Old World Only - 1
c. New World Only - 0

4. Map Type
A. Random map (made by mzprox) - 0
B. Random map with Torroidal wrap (made by mzprox) - 0
C. Earth map - 3

5. Random Events
A. ON - 3
B. OFF - 0

6. Tech Trading
A. Open Tech Trading - 0
B. No Tech Brokering - 0
C. No Tech Trading - 3

7. If the poll result for Question 6 is A or B, do you then want a voucher system?
A. YES - 2
B. No, unlimited trading - 1

8. Vassals
A. Yes - 2
B. No - 1

9. Should we give a penalty to players who accuse anybody from cheating/bad form/etc. in an OOC way? (any penalty will be determined later)
A. YES - 0
B. NO, just remove these posts - 3

10. Timer*
A. First 150 turns 8 hours, after that 12 hours - 2 (though I'd prefer 16-18 after)
B. First 150 turns 12 hours, after that 18 hours - 0
C. First 150 turns 12 hours, after that 24 hours - 1
D. 24 hours

* The number of votes for D should be bigger then A,B,C combined to win for D to win
The number of votes for C should be bigger then A,B combined and bigger then D for C to win

11. Game Speed
A NORMAL - 0
B. EPIC if Poll Question 10 results in A, otherwise NORMAL - 3
C. EPIC - 0

[Exploit]

I was thinking there would be four tiers for civ placement.

Tier 1 - Europe
Tier 2 - Around Europe (Russia, Mideast, North Africa)
Tier 3 - Asia & Africa
Tier 4 - Americas

Your point about Exploit is very well taken. He certainly seems to have a certain poise that could indicate skill in the game. I was thinking of putting him in Tier 3.

I would self-assess myself as Tier 2 but it depends upon the strengths of the rest of the players many of whom I do not know. I have played in approximately 10 games so far and I am almost always in the top 50% ranking based upon power, gold, food and population. I have met several players who are better at optimized growth and/or battle strategy so I do not consider myself Tier 1.

The case could be made for Tier 3 on the basis of my poor diplomacy skills in that I frequently have global dogpiles against me.

[Toni]

Voted & Ranked by Skill Level:
- Robert Plomp
- OzzyKP
- Toni
- Exploit
-----------------
1. Should the map contain Tribal Villages
a. YES - 4
b. NO - 0

2. Will the map contain New Worlds to explore where no civilization starts?
a. YES - 3
b. NO - 1

3. Tribal Villages Location:
If the vote result to Question 1 and 2 are YES, then where will these appear
a. Old World AND New World - 3
b. Old World Only - 1
c. New World Only - 0

4. Map Type
A. Random map (made by mzprox) - 0
B. Random map with Torroidal wrap (made by mzprox) - 0
C. Earth map - 4

5. Random Events
A. ON - 4
B. OFF - 0

6. Tech Trading
A. Open Tech Trading - 0
B. No Tech Brokering - 0
C. No Tech Trading - 4

7. If the poll result for Question 6 is A or B, do you then want a voucher system?
A. YES - 3
B. No, unlimited trading - 1

8. Vassals
A. Yes - 3
B. No - 1

9. Should we give a penalty to players who accuse anybody from cheating/bad form/etc. in an OOC way? (any penalty will be determined later)
A. YES - 0
B. NO, just remove these posts - 4

10. Timer*
A. First 150 turns 8 hours, after that 12 hours - 3 (though I'd prefer 16-18 after)
B. First 150 turns 12 hours, after that 18 hours - 0
C. First 150 turns 12 hours, after that 24 hours - 1
D. 24 hours

* The number of votes for D should be bigger then A,B,C combined to win for D to win
The number of votes for C should be bigger then A,B combined and bigger then D for C to win

11. Game Speed
A NORMAL - 0
B. EPIC if Poll Question 10 results in A, otherwise NORMAL - 4
C. EPIC - 0