New type of diplo game

[Sumeria (DoD)]

Let me share my thoughts as well.
Personally I hope this game will not end with a nuke fest. That's so unsastisfying.
It is absolutely possible to have someone win this game, it'll just take time. But I'm not bored at all with this game.

I can imagine that civs will fall one by one. (Just like the AI civs have).

The only thing I'm not that happy about is that all civs have divided up the AI civs, but I just never took part of that. I personally didn't really like that approach. I'd rather have all the AI civs live on as AI civs and the real humans fight it out among each other. Because of that now Rome is a bottom-score civ. But that doesn't stop me from entertaining myself a lot.

Oh, and when I finally started the 'grab an AI' game with the vikings myself, the Vikings got a sub, so I pulled my army, and then the next turn the sub stopped playing, and my army was too far away to get any good city
(I would have had 2 big ones, 1 including the capital without this ai-sub-ai crap )

Anyway, Rome would never use nukes first.
But if Rome has to, it will nuke back.

Firstly I do agree that indiscriminate use of nuclear weapons is not desirable although, as Deity has stated, not illegal in this game.

Regarding the AI's and Civ destruction I feel that I have been given a greatly OTT and unfair press on this - largely by the Babs - and I want to put the record straight.

France attacked my capitol with Axe at a very early stage in the game. I only had an Archer and a Warrior there and if the attack had come 2 turns earlier it would just have been the Warrior! I survived by the skin of my teeth and only because they attacked like the AI in Civ2. I was stuffed and could not drive them away as they were advancing through rain-forest. The only chance I had was to go round the side and find their capitol on the coast. When I did they made the one and only diplomatic contact ever with me offering that we stop raiding each other's land! I did not even bother to reply and took Paris which was only defended by a Warrior. I think I was entirely justified in this as if you attempt to capture your neighbour's capitol you can hardly complain if they succeed in capturing your's. THIS WAS NOT DONE TO AN AI!!!!! The fact that I quickly saw that another French City had been razed by Barbs is beside the point as is the fact that at that point he simply stopped playing. I asked openly what I should do with the final City and he then posted that he was Civ'ed out and France could be destroyed. There was only 1 City left, nobody could have subbed as it was appallingly placed with a gold mine but no food. I did not capture it but razed it as was agreed by all other players. Am I wrong? Do I lie? France never was an AI Civ just a dead one.

That war cost me a huge amount as I could never expand to the north as I wanted and was left with a dung heap of rain-forest to try and clear without a scrap of iron to be seen.

The Mayan wars were different. I suspected who they were but it was confirmed when he logged in as Pinchak by mistake. I am sorry but I did not want a very good player at my back so I attacked whilst stronger. This was still human v human but I was winning and he quit. WarningU2 took over and I made peace. My second attack was cynical, and you may all disapprove, but I wanted the entire sub-continent, most importantly the iron, and 1000AD had passed. It was a war of total conquest but it still was human v human so although it was totally unfair and I could not lose unless attacked in the north it was legit by the rules. The worst you can say of me is that I am heartless and wholly self-centred! When Maya went to AI the war was over and I had decided to destroy them, whether they were human or not, long before.

Technically I destroyed China as I took the last city. The only Chinese city I own is Shanghai, the only French city is Paris and the only Mayan is Oxhuita. All the rest have been razed so my benefits have been tiny as I have had to start from scratch with the replacements.

France and Maya knew they were at war, unlike the Celts, and China was already being carved up. Vikings were played by a noble man but he should have stayed to fight the evil Hindustanis.

I am sorry that this has been such a long post but I am getting very fed up with being accused of things that I have never done.

[Egypt (DoD)]

Bayblon,

I don't wage war withou offering a way out, but now as the war started it will cost you more than it would had cost you before. I demand 3 former viking cities (of my chhoosing), 5 cannons and 5 hindu missionaries to be handed over. You will get back the city I took from you.
The missionaries have to arrive in ten turns, taking over those cities will ensure that at least the former viking citizens will be freed from the Hindu influence and won't support your dominance in the upcoming vote.

This offer wont stand for too long, I suggest you take it.

The Desertlord

[Babylon (DoD)]

Desertbrain, you are a fool.

You know, as we discussed before you invaded me, that this war is your destruction.

Other nations mouth nicities about you, and express their dislike of me. Fine. But as this war drags on through the century, they will exploit your weakness and destroy you.

Your armies are pitiful. Yes because of your nevy and airforce, you can gradually destroy me. But you have committed all your forces to this war, save for marines poisted to capture Roman cities on the island sea, and machinegun guards on the Roman border. Every year that this war continues, your doom approaches, for you are hated as much as I, and the nations whom you have threatened, invaded and their friends will take the opportunity of your long protected war in Babylon to destroy you.

Do I accept your terms! No. Yes you have captured an island because of your naval power. How clever. Yes you can gradually capture all my coastlines. How clever. But long before the last Hindu cities falls we will have taken you to hell.

We will send you missionaries if you wish. We will even hand over canons. But we never hand over land. Once you start to give in to arrogant bullies by handing over your people, you deserve hell.

We can agree peace by returning to pre-war borders and I will gift you the units you requestion. Otherwise, we will fight until we both go down to hell, and desertbrain, I will lay money on the fact that your enemies will take you there before you take me there.

Messianic Warrior of the Hindu People.

[Egypt (DoD)]

Hindustan,

You call us fools while even you admit that this war will led to your destruction.. -sooner or later-in that we can agree, about the fall of Egypt.. many have dreamed about it, but never gona happen..
We won't demand "your land" we want to free the vikings from the hinduistan influence, and by freeing them we also free the world. We will do it if no one else will.


The Desertlord

[Sumeria (DoD)]

Hindustanis,

Egypt is not a loved nation, it is true, but there is not a single nation in the World that will lift a finger to stop them in this. Their demands are far more modest than most others would ever have expected and can easily be paid, without pain, by you. Were you not to be blinded by your messianic desire for World dominion you would see this. You are fools whose very foolishness robs you of the right to be counted as men at all. You could as easily be counted as grazing animals for your lack of sense shows you to be no better.

Sumeria

[Babylon (DoD)]

Desertbrain,

You think somehow that I am asking for the world pity or help. You fool. I ask for neither. But I do know war, and I know the hatred other nations have for you Desertbrain for your arrogance and threatening behaviour to all nations. I do not ask for people to raise a finger to stop Egypts conquest of all Hindu lands (as the Sumerians put it). I simply predict that while you are ground down in an endless war for which you don't have the troops to win easily or quickly, other nations will expoit your weakness - not for my sake but for their own ends - and you too Egypt will be destroyed.

If you are confident that I am wrong - that the nations of the world will sit and do nothing while Egypt grows massively in productivity and wealth by absorbing Hindustan - then continue and we will see who is right.

Your postring over Viking lands is pathetic and insulting. Everyone in this world knows who declared war on the Vikings. You - Egypt did. If people are confused by your disinformation they can find it in the public record. It was Egypt who declared war first on the Vikings and decided that as a nation they deserved to die. It was not Hindustan nor Rome but Egypt in its lust for land and power. You are right of course that your army's small size and the woeful stupidity of your generals and the Viking peoples hatred for you meant that although Egypt was the one to launch the invasion of the Vikings you failed to gain the land and powe from it that you lust for. That is your own fault.

But enough of talking. Desertbrain you can continue to bully and spread untruths about Hindu dominance although you know it is impossible for Hindustan to ever win a vote for dominance but its a lie that serves your purposes - but if you think that seizing some Hindu cities is going to make the Hindu people rush to you saying 'yes yes please make us your slaves', you need to think again.

The offer is clear. I will pay tribute and give you the hindu missionaries (though you do not actually need them) and troops if we return to pre-war borders.

Until then the messianic forces of the Hindu people will resist you to your and their grave. The world is slipping out of your control Desertbrain, beacuse someone will stand up to you. Perhaps that is the gift of much maligned Hinduism to the world - our belief in reincarnation means that we don't care if we die while executing the vengeance of the gods on your arrogance.

Perhaps though your plan is that you capture the Hindu shrine and large parts of Hindustan and then ... of course ... you organise a vote yourself and become master of the world.

That is it isn't it. You know there is no way I can win such a vote, although you pretend other wise. You know that you will havea hard time conquering the world. So instead you will seize the Shine and vote yourself the Hindu god. The maths will work perfectly. What an amazingly clever plan - I bet nobody has noticed it. That is why you are interested in Hindu missionaries and seizing hindu cities. And that is why you said you would nuke anyone who researched Meass media becuase that you put to an end your abitions of yourself winning a religious vote.

I admire your cleverness - perhaps I should be more admiring of your brain.

The Messianic Warrior of the Hindu People.

[Babylon (DoD)]

OOC

Sumeria's OOC post about AI's is tricky for me. In fact I completely agree with what Sumeria says OOC - I don't think he has done anything wrong. I'm sorry that he feels got at. Yes Hindustan and Sumeria have had a propoganda campaign IC about conquest, but I never intended any OOC criticism. Its a bit confusing here perhaps with it all being in one thread. At the same time Sumeria's OCC post does contain some IC criticism of Hindustan, continuing Sumerias perfectly reasonable IC propoganda against Hindustan. I don't think it is going to help this great game to get into OCC discussions about how thing happened now, and certainly not when it is all tied up with IC events too. I have never minded the IC propoganda but if people mean it OCC than I do have a problem. When I attacked the Celts I worked hard in advance to make sure they were not AI, getting Ozzy to sub even though it meant my attack was hugely less successful that it would have been. A massive war gained me one city because I was fighting against Ozzy not an AI. And then when I managed to turn the corner in the Celtic-Viking attack on Hindustan much later, I agreed peace with no penalties with the Vikings precise so that the human player still had a fun game to play in. Later he turned it over to AI and Egypt not Hindustan decided it was time to attack it. (No cricitism of Egypt, but the facts are that I didn't launch the attack on the AI Vikings). I think that the whole business of AI nations being attacked, and more particularly human nations being attacked, the peopel losing heart and the nation then being turned over to AI, is a tricky aspect of this great game, but I'm not sure discussing it now is right - or if we do we need to do it clearly OCC.

[Egypt (DoD)]

Oh, Messainic Warhead,
Yeah, sure.. Egypt declared war on the viking and Babylon just happen to get his hands on most of the viking cities.. I bet they joined you wilingly.
And your hypotesis about my plans are quite interesting, but full of logical flaws..
I can't get both your cities and the mssionaries.. these later are part of my terms and I'd only get them if we were making peace. And if I'd really wanted to take most of your cities then why would I ask for only 3 cities-which should not belong to you anyway.
You say your religious dominace will never gona happen. That's right, because I won't let it. The world was too painfully close this to happen two times already. 8 votes.. since then two of your cities have been converted and more Galleons are carrying missionaries to the new world. If it would had happen a bit sooner..
This is why you don't want to release the vikings, and this is why I won't accept other kind of peace.

The Desertlord

[Sumeria (DoD)]

@Hindustan

OOC

Sorry if you consider what I said OOC regarding my actions over AI Civs and Civ Destruction in general on my part was in anyway IC. I never meant it that way but I don't know your real ID so I only can refer to you as Babylon or Hindustan, in this case just Babs, so sorry for the confusion. Even my comment regarding indiscriminate use of Nukes was OOC.

If I have misinterpreted IC jibes at me with OOC criticism then that was an error. My comments were also directed at Rome as I, again, do not feel myself to have enjoyed an AI feast. I may have driven 3 players out of the game due to the heaviness of defeat but that is a totally different issue. Remember that original Celtia also quit when his only really worthwhile city was taken.

It was specifically agreed that post 1000AD Civ annihilation was legitimate so my behaviour towards Maya was correct under the rules and pre-planned by me, people can disapprove but that's all. France is different and was totally unintentional as I was only trying to save my skin and could hardly know that Barbs were going to help me out. I may have killed them off but that was by group consensus and I gained nothing from it. The AI land grab in China had nearly been completed by America, which now owns over half of it, and Russia when I just grabbed 1 city and a bit of land to give the pair of them something to think about.

Sorry again, Babs, but I did feel that a lot of unfair things were being said about my behaviour, not just by you, and that I was 'being got at OOC'. I also regret 3 people quitting as a result of my actions but I cannot be blamed for fighting wars. I don't blame you for the Celtic player quitting when you roughed him up; it's really just a bit sad when people give up. Nobody can be blamed for China or Vikings leaving the game though more effort might have been made to get a Sub for China as they still had a bit of life in them.

[Rome (DoD)]

My comment wasn't really directed at anybody or an attempt to judge people.
I just noticed that I did not get any AI stuff while others did, and that now Rome is a bit behind. A bit of frustration
I do not know much about the circumstances of these land-robbings, and it's also my fault b/c this game had 'no rules' and 'civ elimination'. I just have been to kind myself to the Vikings, ie.

So it's not directed at you or any form of judgement on you, Gilgamesh!
(but if you feel sorry, you can give me 20000 gold compensation, just to easy your conscience! )

[Egypt (DoD)]

Babylon,

You will keep losing cities in every turn as my "pityful" armies advance. I suggest you reconsider my peace offer: 3 viking cities ( Nidaros and its two neighbouring cities (pop 7 and 4) and the units(5 cannons and five missionaries). My term is also a 50 turns non-aggression pact between us.
Next turn I think I will ask for 4 viking cities..

Desertlord

[Sumeria (DoD)]

OOC.

@Rome.

Thank you. I guess I must be getting paranoid but I have obviously been reading things into posts that were not meant as personal digs at me.

Sorry but I have been around for nearly 6000 years so I am not as quick as I used to be.

As for the 20,000 Gold, will you take a cheque or is it cash only?

Gilgamesh

[Babylon (DoD)]

OOC - appreciate your comments Sumeria. These games do make you paranoid don't they. Now back to a sensible war.

[Babylon (DoD)]

Babylon,

You will keep losing cities in every turn as my "pityful" armies advance. I suggest you reconsider my peace offer: 3 viking cities ( Nidaros and its two neighbouring cities (pop 7 and 4) and the units(5 cannons and five missionaries). My term is also a 50 turns non-aggression pact between us.
Next turn I think I will ask for 4 viking cities..

Desertlord

You really don't listen do you Desertbrain, and in the process you prove my analysis is exactly right.

I am not interested in giving you a get out from the disasterous stupid war you have embarked on. We will die and take you with us. How much clear do you want me to be?

You can have peace on the pre-war borders, or die fighting. Your endless offers of peace only prove the point that you have no stomach for a long war, because you know I am right that your other enemies - the people you have bullied in the past and their friends - will come and destroy you.

Continue spreading your lies. Continue arrogantly demanding that other nations are your slaves and must give their own people and their own cities to you, and you will destroy your own nation. The other nations who hate you (which is pretty well everyone because of your actions in the past) are laughing at you and rubbing their hands in glee.

The only way out is respect. Respect for an equal nation which has been your friend. Arrogant demands = long war = your own destruction.

We will be reincarnated as heros, you as a worm. So we do not fear death.

The Messianic Warrior

[Sumeria (DoD)]

Let it be known Hindustan, that Sumeria may agree with nought else with Egypt but here they are fighting a just and rightful war.

Our belief is such that if requested Sumeria will join Egypt in their just campaign to rid the World of the disgrace that is your Theocratic desire to dominate all nations.

As such Infantry are readied to depart should they be needed and unless you come to your senses your small lands in the New World will shortly become no lands. Sumeria has not been blind to your tricks either and, please remember, that she is far less merciful than any other. Sumeria does not capture anything - SHE RAZES IT! Give what modest, far too modest in my opinion, requests Egypt asks or you will lose your colonies as well. You will not get them back in a Treaty for they will have simply have ceased to exist.

Ancient Gilgamesh.

Sadly my children all died over 4000 years ago and I have been shooting blanks for so long that 756 Wives are of little aid though they do give an old man a great entertainment! Experience never should be taken as inferior to youthful energy.