New Horizons - New Diplogame Set-Up Thread

[OzzyKP]

Yea I think it is a good idea to wait for the end of DoC. I thought we were going to go with the same tech trading rules from DoC. What are tech buddies? As far as I know at least there weren't any attempts to be "espionage buddies" in previous games, I assume/hope people have more integrity than to try to get around the rules like that.

While I think the DoC tech rules were good, I wouldn't be opposed to banning tech trading altogether either.

As for mod or normal game... I guess that depends on what we do about the 8th civ. Lz's idea to move Germany east and use HRE for Austria would work with standard BTS. If, however, we wanted to add Ukraine (or Hungary or something) that would require a mod, and I'm sure there are easily added mods out there for it. If we used a mod I'd love to use Italy instead of Rome. Rome is a bit out of place in this game.

[LzPrst]

I think we should try the noscore mod. there are things with it I like, but somethings I'm not fully happy about. however, by trying it out we will gather data which will form a basis for further study to evaluate its usefulness in later diplogames.

the 100% tech bleed that the mod gives will balance things out a little techwise. with that in mind I am tempted to say no tech trades.

what does Tech bud, Tech esp mean???

also, we need to flesh out the details regarding regime changes. we need to have an extra player who can be "interim" governments. we need anonymous play accounts.

as for agreements and pacts. I say that any deal or treaty that is not published on the forum is no more trustworthy or binding than loose talk. all major deals should be publicly made known in order for them to be considered official.

as for other rules? use the DoC ones?

[LzPrst]

Austro-Hungary (or just one of them) can be made without a mod. By unrestricting leaders and agreeing upon a limitation of choices for that civ should work fine. other civs must choose their standard leaders.

ideas for this would be (renaming is required):
Charlemagne or Justinian in charge of HRE = Austria
Charlemagne or Justinian in charge of Carthage/Spain = Hungary

This represents the imperial ambitions of those nations as well as their unique specialties. Austria had formidable soldiers, was often on the defensive and had good administration, furthermore their leaders were often devout catholics.
Hungary had for some time exceptional cavalry.

I am opposed to a Ukraine civ, no offense, but they were never a major player outside their own local area, barely even there, in that situation, the nordic countries were far more important.

If we want Europe as in medieval onwards, Austro-Hungary is the civ we're looking for.

[OzzyKP]

Ok, so I shrunk the map as we had planned.



I put lines on it again as another possible, more severe, shrinking. Almost totally cutting out Africa & the mideast. It does seem that the Ottomans would have quite a lot of mideast land to expand to if we don't. But it might be too severe a cut, so I'm just throwing it out there.

If we did that though I think having Germany at their original position, adding Hungary and bumping Russia west (to the box) would be a good balance. Otherwise, I think moving Germany east (box) and having Hungary would still leave a large amount of land to the east, and Austro-Hungary would be fairly cramped. Ukraine, while not as important as Austro-Hungary would be in a better spot.

Though if we went with Hungary, I'd definitely want to use a mod, since there is an awesome Hungary mod out there. Plus Mxproz and I are both Hungarian.

[St Jon]

Austria-Hungary was a single state not two independent countries.

Tech-Buddy is just where you agree only to trade with one other player. You co-ordinate research and can get a real head start. Does not matter if trades are banned.

Esp-Buddies are when A goes 100% on B, B goes 100% on C and C goes 100% on A. Very cheap spying and a way to get round no tech trades. When I was told about it I ran a test and it does work. It is very dodgy ethically but will it be banned? It was, I think rightfully, in DoC but I'm really only seeking clarification. We do have to have rules set prior to start time or we will just get later arguments.

[deity]

I agree on waiting for DoC to finish is good before starting this but I hope Cyber is still doing another full traditional diplo game soon after DoC ends?

[LzPrst]

Hungary was incorporated into Austria, but in 1867 they agreed to have separate governments, but a common King. Therefore they were in effect 2 nations who shared the same head of state. The main player here was always Austria. Which is why I am against Hungary as a nation. Then we could put in Dutch instead of France, Lithuanian instead of Russian, Greek instead of Russian and Luxembourg instead of Germany.

Either we are dealing with the great powers, or we can just use any european civs. Austria was a superpower that dominated central europe for nearly a millennia. Hungary was gobbled up by Ottoman and Austrian armies. The natural choice is Austria. I'm scandinavian and I'm not making claims that Sweden or Denmark-Norway gets included. Let's be rational here.

Austria-Hungary was a single state not two independent countries.

[OzzyKP]

I don't think it is such a slam dunk for Austria.

Check this out:
Hungary was a dominant power from 1000-1500 and Austria was from 1600-1900.

But if we go with Austria, what do people think of the more extreme cropping of the map? I think that would balance everyone well, but with the current dimensions of the map Austria is too far west and will cramp Italy more than Russia or the Ottomans.

[St Jon]

Why not just make life hard for Russia with terrain. If you don't like Russia then Turkey is also hugely over-powered.

[OzzyKP]

Ok, so it looks like DoC is over! So that means we need to get started! I'm going to do another crop of the map, as indicated above, and use Germany & Austria as Lz suggests. I'm going to keep Germany in their original starting spot and move Austria a little east (to where Hungary should start).

At least that way we don't have to fumble with a mod.

[LzPrst]

sounds fair.

[St Jon]

What size is this map?

If it is too small then cropping North Africa will hurt Spain desperately and Italy is going to have a rough enough time anyway. I reckon you are right on the Eastern crop as Turkey just explodes with uncontested land along with Russia without it.

We're all going to have to give France some fine care when our time to rule in Paris arrives. Creating and maintaining a valid France is going to be tough. London should be like a summer holiday in comparison!

Still we've all got to take them all at some point so all's fair in love and war.

[OzzyKP]

I think Spain & France will do just fine. Italy may be cause for worry, but they'll be fine. The biggest thing that determined whether a civ succeeded or failed in past games has been the player, not the geography. So if we are switching it up, each civ will have good and bad players at the helm and things will balance out. I'm excited to try!

But, ok folks!

DoC is over, so now it is our time to begin! I've got the map cropped perfectly, and the civs placed. I just have some tweaking to do and we'll be good to go!

We are going to use the sale rule set from DoC, and same system for diplo voting. There are some issues we need to decide by Saturday however:

1. Tech trading - No tech trading or DoC rules for trading?

2. Succession - How will we decide when to switch players? I suggest we add a rule that when players switch that the in-character ruler changes for that civ to avoid confusion.

3. Turn timer - I suggest we go with a longer timer to start and allow everyone to pick their civs.

4. Passwords? - I think it'll be easier to go with no passwords, but worth discussing and deciding.

5. Anything else I'm forgetting?

[The Priest]

Great we are nearly there.

My thoughts:

1. Tech - no trading. I think the DoC system worked ok though no trading may still be preferable. But in succession, some of us are going to be annoyed when the previous ruler spent all the vouchers etc, or committed to future trades in vouchers we may not want to honour etc. So go for no trading.

2. Succession. Yes - in-character ruler swaps when ooc ruler changes. In fact I would go one further and say in-character ruler only swaps when ooc ruler changes. Players shouldn't be storying ruler changes when we have them built into the game. Players can't use a ruler change to swap direction mid 'reign'.

When/how. We really need someone who isn't one of the players to help us with this. Otherwise everyone is going to have to swap at the same time, which seems a shame.

No extra player: A - B, B - C, C - D etc. all at same time to avoid a nation have no ruler, or one player playing two.

With extra player: X - A, couple of turns later A-B; couple of turn later B-C etc. eventually H - A with X dropping out again.

When? Well the easiest would be for Mr X to produce a schedule. Produced in advance (so not changed because of in game actions) but only partially published.

So we all know: first change zone between turns 30 and 50, second change zone between turns 70 and 90 etc., but we don't know when Mr x wil pm us saying - this is your last turn - and we don't know the pattern of what nation will take over from which. This gives some dependability for us as we play a nation - we know we have a certain amount of time - but means that the changes of rulers will be a surprise when they come. Yes they may interupt long laid plans, but hey thats what happened in history, someone died unexpectedly and it all changed.

Without a Mr X I think it becomes less elegant - all we could do is fix a schedule of turns at which everyone changes. I'm not sure if Ozzy is intended to play as well as host/design map etc. if not, he is mr x. If yes, we need another. I could be happy to, though maybe that cuases a problem of needing another player.

3. Turn timer. Yes long first one, then some short ones seems to have worked well before.

4. Passwords - yes password the game to stop unconnected people logging into mess it. But don't password civs to allow the succession - we can all see in civstats if someone has logged into our civ when they shouldn't have.

5. Picking civs - Seems a bit unfair to just let it happen by logging in - the person who happens not to be at work/asleep when we start has the pic of all, some other sod comes home from work and finds she is left with Iceland. I'd go for allocating randomly, or everyone gives Ozzy/me three ordered preferences and we try to sort them as best we can.

6. Map - I haven't followed what map is being used for Europe though know the disucssions about cropping etc. Since some are probably familiar with the map and others not, best for fairness for it to be published so all have the same info?

7. No OOC discussion/alliances. The succession system will tempt some of us to try to form more permanent alliances/understandings which connect to use as players rather than the civs. This should be clearly banned. The only discussion should be at the level of the nations which yes swap. Treaties etc. which are never made public - well they are unlikely to survive the death of the ruler - treaties which are, well, a new ruler may or may not tear them up. Welcome to the real world.

8. PM accounts - do we have them? In the name of the nation? Have to think about passwords etc. for them.

9. Are we storying and voting in this? Can't remember what we said. Stories yes surely. Votes? If so would have to connect to the person playing the civ, not the civ.

Sounding good - Saturday come quickly!

[Robert]

Why swap characters when ooc players change?
It's much more interesting to see if a new player can, at least temporarily, continue the character of an old player.

It will force you to try to play another character, one that may not fit you.
Playing another role is cool!