The Dance of Civilizations [Diplo Game] [Organization Thread Pt1]

[Persia (DoC)]

i don't like the line "let the little civs have their wars and no one (big) intervenes".

why can not the littlest nation have such powerful friends that it changes everything?

I'm sorry for not being able to explain myself clearly
Anyway, this is not what I try to say.

Big civs can intervene and small civs can have big friends.
Forget all I said and all please continue the way you want.

Bringing a nuanced message is impossible in the middle of a game. I am sorry.

[Greece (DoC)]

SOLUTION

i agree on Byzantium sentiments and much else that has been said.

i think it is wrong for ooc to influence ic but it happens.

i don't like the line "let the little civs have their wars and no one (big) intervenes".

this strikes at the heart of diplo and is anti-diplo. imho.

we are trying to make a perfect balanced fun game for everyone at the expense of what the origins of diplo was all about: DIPLOMACY!

and i don't mean one on one diplomacy.

why can not the littlest nation have such powerful friends that it changes everything?

oh well, looks like you'll let me keep playing Greece till its end so i will, thankyou.

i will cancel all alliances and let the arabs have their little fun war - at least its better than the carve up idea.

so England, India and Korea please, thank-you, but no thanks!

[Byzantium (DoC)]

Wow - you get up, go to work, log in and find shed loads of stuff has happened in under 24 hours.

My only comment occ is that we should probably all recognise how tricky it is to keep this game working well. Our rule set is good, but that still leaves much up to our judgement. The rules don't stop India invading Greece - just an example of top score and bottom score nation - as long as India doesn't take too many cities, since 'measured war' is about how much gain/loss not about balance, but we all know that that sort of attack of massive power against tiny is not on. But take a less extreme example and it gets more cloudy, and we all see the judgements differently. Some think its not on for Greece to lose anything because it is small, others think is fine for Arabs to aspire to grow by war (as long as its measured) with similar sized neighbours. We are probably not going to agree, and lets be honest its always mixed up with in game factors (and other occ stuff, like it seems to me that some found ozzy-arab's actions dubious becaues it was ozzy, it felt wrong for a sub etc., while others felt it was in keeping with original arab's intentions).

I've tried to keep my arguing IG, but I'm sure some occ reflection is helpful too. But its a tricky business, and I we are probably in agreement on much of the underlying stuff, just we all look on individual situations from different perspectives.

[Persia (DoC)]

India, if you believe that your reasons are good, then continue it. I will then find out later that I was wrong.
Anyway, I think you show that you got an admirable character for willing to reconsider.

And for the record, I don't like it to do this ooc stuff, and I do realise that I am only a 1 person opinion, but I just place myself in the shoes of Arabia (Inca earlier) and just can't imagine that it's fun for those civs to walk into concrete walls.
I did the same for Russia earlier, and decided to stay out of their conflict with the Ottomans as well. (apart from some string pulling, needed for story flowing)

[England (DoC)]

No worries India

[England (DoC)]

No problem

[India (DoC)]

Upon further consideration I've decided that I will withdraw from this war.

I don't want to be blamed taking anyone's fun from the game even if I strongly disagree with this kind of OOC regulation of one's movement and this kind of definition of "fun".
I know it is not just about me, but in general.. is it allowed to join in a conflict if you are stronger than any of the already warring civs? I'm sure we agree that this is not a simple yes or no situation.

In this particular event it was my best interest to join (still won't tell you why ), but it doesnt worth it if it leads to this kind of ooc argument.

so sorry Greece, and please ignore my last post in the story thread.

[India (DoC)]

At what point did needing oil and going to war for it not become an in character motive?

Thankfully it never happens RL

[Rome (DoC)]

IMHO, if India says they have an IC reason which Persia cannot see then 1) Persia should give India the benefit of the doubt and allow them to actually build their case, and 2) India should consider being a little more overt in future situations to prevent risk of doubt around motives

Or, of course, go kick the crap out of each other and give the rest of us a spectacle to watch

[Rome (DoC)]

At what point did needing oil and going to war for it not become an in character motive? Religion is a strong theme in this game, but let's not force everyone to have everything spin around it. India is building a case for intervention as we speak anyway: they have not declared war on anybody yet and are now building a case to do so in the future.

OOC would be declaring war without any prior communication on the subject, not complaining about what is happening and stating that if a situation continues intervention will be needed. All the big boys do that, just with a different agendas. We either force the big boys NOT to open their mouths at all in situations like this, or allow room for all points of view, pro and con intervention.

IMHO, if India says they have an IC reason which Persia cannot see then 1) Persia should give India the benefit of the doubt and allow them to actually build their case, and 2) India should consider being a little more overt in future situations to prevent risk of doubt around motives

Will it help you, India? Of course it will.
Coal, great people, oil, use greece to launch an attack on England, etc. etc. There are many possibilities.

But does that mean it's in character?
Greece is an Islam nation, you're a strong taoist. In fact so far your story has only been about Taoism. (a very good one, you got a 7 from me!)
I don't see how India helping Greece fits within your character.

But anyway, I have said my thing. I don't need a consensus. We've had this small debate, now everybody makes his own decision, which is fine.
I'm going to stay out of it. I hope this does not end up in Arabia having to fight all the big powers alone (b/c Byzantium also must pull out b/c of too much power against him)

[India (DoC)]

Coal, great people, oil, use greece to launch an attack on England, etc. etc. There are many possibilities.

But does that mean it's in character?

If I really wanted that coal I'd do whatever it takes to get it. Why is it not in character? I don't want to overexplain it.. India has been bribed into this conflict with something which she needs really badly. (and I can assure you that it's a fair trade b4 someone thinks I want to rip poor Greece off)

[Persia (DoC)]

Will it help you, India? Of course it will.
Coal, great people, oil, use greece to launch an attack on England, etc. etc. There are many possibilities.

But does that mean it's in character?
Greece is an Islam nation, you're a strong taoist. In fact so far your story has only been about Taoism. (a very good one, you got a 7 from me!)
I don't see how India helping Greece fits within your character.

But anyway, I have said my thing. I don't need a consensus. We've had this small debate, now everybody makes his own decision, which is fine.
I'm going to stay out of it. I hope this does not end up in Arabia having to fight all the big powers alone (b/c Byzantium also must pull out b/c of too much power against him)

[India (DoC)]

We are getting too much argument lately about should a bigger civ intervene or not.. for whatever reason:
-alliance
-friendship
-bribe

We could make a vote, but it's not an easy question.

Sure, unbalanced wars are less fun, but
-they still can be fun
-it doesnt depend on size, the original Arabian/Greek war was already unbalanced


To answer Persia: Yes, I'm sure I'm doing it for IC reasons, to achieve my IC goal.

But if we are to make a consensus about this question I won't mind pulling myself out of this conflict-but then it should be the way we play from now on, and I strongly belive it would hurt the diplo more than it'd help it.

[Russia (DoC)]

hardly anyone got involved in the Russo-persian war. or the Russo-byzantine war (which ozzy forgot to mention) and persia only mumbled in their beards about making peace or else... else nothing... wow. how come Russia gets to move about freely like that all the time...? oh yeah, we KICK ASS

[Robert]

I moved some of the ooc posts from the story thread to this thread.
(The usual Persia ranting and some Korea one liners that also might have been in-character....)