Beyond the Pit [Pitboss Diplomacy Game] [Organization Thread IV]

[The Capo]

Thank you Ozzy, I agree with every single thing you said.

I was starting to think that everyone hated me all of the sudden, just because I thought Cyber may have cheated. And to Cyber, to be honest I am going to kill your GE, I am going to fight a dirty war, so you should probably do the very same thing to me. But don't get personally angry with me over this because that is really going to hamper my high view of you. I am doing what I have to do, if you think I am going to sit around and accept my position in this game you are grossly mistaken. I have already made my points in the story thread (as to why I am doing this), I wrote a long drawn out story (even with your help) that lead up to this war. I justified it (even if you disagree with the reasons) in the story. It makes sense, it is not being done out of the blue.

To make it a more simple story for everyone to understand (because I know they can get ridiculously complicated with me sometimes), here you go;

1) Kim was used as an assassin in past storylines. He was used by the Emperors because of his loyalty and secrecy. Since he was not part of the nobility (as a peasant) he had no political entanglements.

2) Your King (in a storyline YOU started) brought Gojong to Sparta and told him that Bojong and Bak Moon were plotting to overthrow him and replace him with their own family. I didn't necessarily want this story line to occur, but since you made it I decided to play along. So Gojong returns knowing this.

3) Bojong and Bak Moon decide that they will try to marry the Princess to one of their cousins and establish their family as the new Imperial line. Bojong wants to remain in power, so his plan is to have the marriage and then find a way to get Gojong out of the picture.

4) Gojong, for his part, realizes that something is amiss (because of Orestes) so he plans on having Kim marry the Princess. Since he is a peasant-General Gojong figures he will have no prior political entanglements and has been loyal to the Imperial family anyway. This way his family will still dominate the politics of Korea.

5) Bojong does not realize the Emperor knows of the plot (becuase he wasn't with Gojong when Orestes told him) and tells the Emperor the plan to marry the Princess to Gae Ponjang (Bak Moon/Bojong's relative). The Emperor, who now believes what Orestes told him is confirmed by Bojong's proposal, informs him that he will marry the Princess to Kim. There is only one problem; Kim is already married.

6) Bojong decides that he must have Kim killed, so that Gae Ponjang can marry the Princess. But since Kim is a noted warrior and a General no less he has to get Kim to come to him. So he decides he will have Kim's wife kidnapped to lure Kim into his trap. Gojong decides to have Kim's wife killed so he would be free to marry the Princess.

7) Bojong's men arrive to capture Kim's wife, but Gojong's men also arrive. A fight ensues where Kim's wife dies at the hands of an Imperial soldier. He used General Park Long's weapons though. When Park Long told the Emperor that Kim's wife has died he also informed him that a soldier of Bojong was there, so if Kim saw the scene he woudl think it was Wonsan (forgetting that there was evidence that his men killed Kim's wife).

8) Since Kim was THERE when Orestes told Gojong about the plot he realized that all of this could have been avoided if it was not for Orestes' meddling. After taking down the Emperor, Orestes is next on his list. His brother in law is also a member of a pro-emancipation group. Greece, being the founder of the AET is a natural enemy. I have also explained other reasons why this new government sees Greece as an oppressor. If you read my stories again you will even see that I FORESHADOWED ALL OF THIS.

So do not be upset about this. You had ample opportunity to realize what was happening, in fact you even helped me craft the plot against you.

[The Capo]

First of all, I disagree with nearly all of this Cyber.

I definitely disagree with Snoopy. And what makes him such an expert anyway? Ozzy is right, for me to tell you the turn BEFORE I am declaring war is ridiculous and gives me no advantage at all. I can't believe you are actually complaining that KOREA is invading GREECE! Are you serious?

I understand being upset that I and some others implied you may have cheated. I understand being upset that you were fooled. I get it, it sucks, and you're upset. But I don't think anything I am doing is wrong in an OOC fashion. In-game, yes, some of the things i have done were underhanded, but I knew that. We tricked you, of course that involved underhanded activity! Otherwise we wouldn't have tricked you!

[OzzyKP]

Thanks for the Cliff's Notes.

You should do summaries like that for all your stories...

[MMC]

I believe the point about the turn before the war really only refers to the attacking force. And then only in terms of waiting before moving.

What I mean is, you don't need to tell Greece about attacking, you don't need to declare war and then wait for Greece to arrange a time and place for battle (although doing that could earn some diplo and story votes), however, once your stack is ready to cross the border, just wait. If Greece notices the stack, so be it. If not, well... you gave them a chance to, and thus you're not double moving.

[The Capo]

Thanks for the Cliff's Notes.

You should do summaries like that for all your stories...

If I did that it wouldn't be called backstabbing. It'd just be regular stabbing.

[The Capo]

I believe the point about the turn before the war really only refers to the attacking force. And then only in terms of waiting before moving.

What I mean is, you don't need to tell Greece about attacking, you don't need to declare war and then wait for Greece to arrange a time and place for battle (although doing that could earn some diplo and story votes), however, once your stack is ready to cross the border, just wait. If Greece notices the stack, so be it. If not, well... you gave them a chance to, and thus you're not double moving.

He knew the army was there. He could definitely see it. Remember, part of the army is units he gave me!

[MMC]

He knew the army was there. He could definitely see it. Remember, part of the army is units he gave me!

I mean waiting for him to realize that the stack might actually be hostile, as opposed to simply being returned to him.

[Pitboss Celts]

I also noticed that Roosevelt had logged in as "roosevelt" a while back.

That was me subbing for America while the regular player was on vacation for two weeks.

[Robert]

in 1630 I was not aware yet that Korea would attack me. I knew where my units were (I have spies), and all I knew was that he was going to attack the Maya

I played my turn

Then The Capo logged inafter me, moved his units 3 tiles (roads) towards my border.
He had the advantage of playing after me. I could not react to that movement in 1630 anymore. Fair enough, that's turn-based gaming.

By the end of 1630 I already knew that somehing was going to happen. ( I ended all Korea/Maya/Sparta negoiatons and I knew that Korea was not going to like it!
I just never expected full war! I thought closed borders, him keeping my units anyway to use these against the Maya, whatever.
So if I would have been able to play after Korea in 1630 I would have understood his plans. I would have been shocked, but I would have take actions. like moving my Great Engineer to a good spot, not moving units away from the Korean border, etc.)

But noproblem, that's turn based gaming.
Next turn I could responde.

But then 1635 came and The Capo played first!
Moving his units anoher 3 tiles, now into my land. Bumping my great engineer out of his territory and being able to move first to kill it immediately! (fortunately he failed at that)

Now he had both the advantage of playing late in 1630 and early in 1635
That's against the spirit and the rule of the double move rule.
Ozzy: this is not about 'fore warning 2 turns in advance'.
It's just about keeping the correct order in a war. That's what we agreed upon before the game started.

Now Korea also has the benefit of moving first every turn of the war, while he had the advantage of moving last before the war started. (and placing his troops into the right position)

Now remember that The Capo was always the first to yell and call cheater as soon as something even smelled like double moving. (with or without benefits, etc.)
He was unreasonable, always ready to put heavy penalties on players, etc. etc.

I always was more 'soft', I wanted only to fix unfair advantages, believing that the player who double moved made a mistake and did not cheat on purpose.

My position now is the same (eventhough I am the victim).
I don't believe Capo cheated, he just make a mistake. no problem. That's why I only want to fix the problem by being allowed now to move first again and fix the move-order again.

The Capo is acting totally opposite of normal. Instead of yelling 'cheater' at himself he now suddenly says there's no problem and nothing is going wrong.
That is so wrong.

But I'm not going to make a problem out of this.
I'll just move first next turn. You can all yell whatever you want, but I'm not going to listen.
It's very clear, The Capo double moved in a war situation. (the 2nd move was the war move, thus it was a double move in a war situation)
I'm going to fix it by moving first in the next turn.

It's as easy as that.
And from now on I'll ignore The Capo in every double-move discussion since his opinion is not fair but dependant to his own position. If he would've been honourable he would now have admitted his fault and should have said: "I deserve a big punishment, because that's what I wanted to give to others when they made this same mistke." but no, he wants to talk himself out of it. (while he was disgusted at 'others' who after the same mistake tried to explain themselves!)

Of course I don't want a big punishment for Korea. it's a mistake, no problem.
But I am really really surprised with people like Ozzy who now stand up for the capo (like always, btw) and try to claim it is not a double move. Why Ozzy?

[The Capo]

If you move before me in the next turn Greece you have comitted a double move. Unless its six hours in of course. That is the truth behind it, and clearly you know it by saying you are going to do it ahead of time. I did not double move. I implore you not to do what you intend on doing, I know you are upset over what has happened but you are being unreasonable.

[Robert]

And The CApo: I have no problem with your storyline.
I have no problem with your declaration of war against me
Your 'sparta is the bane of Korea' is legitimate and good (though I disagree IC)

My problem is not your backstabbing
It's not your story, not your lead up.

My problem is the total fake korea-maya tensions.
It's to me in the same category of Vikings and Japan faking a war to get military votes.
You played a hate relation between Maya and Korea while in fact you guys were plotting together.
And then you begged me to hand my army to you, only to use it against me, which is once again totally unrealistic. (and thus against all forms of diplogaming)
Imagine the USA troops in Iraq turn against AMerica and invade America? That's totally unrealistic! It makes no sence.

But well, I have accepted that that is what's going to happen.
I have already reacted IC to that.

Now I have two issues:
1. I move first next turn
2. maya at leats pause their invasion for 2 periods

[The Capo]

Now I have two issues:
1. I move first next turn
2. maya at leats pause their invasion for 2 periods

1) If you do, you have comitted a double move. And since you know now, and its premeditated you shouldn't do it. If you do that is really really really bad form.

2) That is ridiculous, there is no reason for this to happen but of course is up to the Maya themselves, I have no control over them.

If you really want to argue this I'd suggest that you pause the game until this gets resolved. If you make a double move there is going to be hell to pay, and you are risking the integrity of the game. And your own integrity as well.

[OzzyKP]

Maya definitely shouldn't pause their invasion, (if that is indeed what is going on). I find ZERO fault in the deception. These kinds of deceptions have been part of diplogaming for as long as I can remember. You tell your enemies you are their friend, so they trust you and let their guard down. You distract them with other enemies and threats so you can stab them from behind. This is as essential to good diplogaming as anything else. I'm rather surprised that you find fault with it OOC.

As for the double move issue... I dunno, I still lean toward Capo's position, but I'm definitely more open to CS's position as well. The whole Pitboss double move thing is just damn fricken complicated and seems to foul everything up. Ick.

The trouble though is that with all the drama and reloads, it is impossible now to estimate whether CS really did know, in 1630, that there would be war, and how he would respond had he an opportunity to. So if we reloaded (again... ugh) it seems likely that CS would prepare for the war in ways he wouldn't have done otherwise. Allowing CS a double-move in the middle of the war to counter Capo's double move before the war hardly seems to be a fair solution either.

I'm not sure what to do really.

[Robert]

Ozzy: this has never happened in diplo gaming! Of course acting as a friend has, but not faking a war with the player with whom you're really planning together, and the use his armies against him.

And the double move has NOTHING to do with knowing or not knowing.
It's just a simple rule: DON'T DOUBLE MOVE during war time.
His 2nd move (double move) was the war move.

Capo: you did a double move and I'm going to fix it next turn.

Neither Ozzy nor The Capo address my issues, neither did any of them address Snoopy who already addressed this issue months ago when we first discussed this.
There is no argument anywhere in the world that would make what The Capo did not a double move.
Talking about 'knowing' and not 'knowing' doesn't matter. This has nothing with 'knowing' to do.
It has to do with a simple game mechanics of turn-based gaming where we agreed that war-turns would be turn-based.
The Capo ignored this and did a double move. His 2nd move was a war move, which made his double move against the rules.

[OzzyKP]

I'm saying that if we reloaded to undo his "double-move" (still not entirely convinced) then you have the benefit of knowing there is a war coming and would take advantage of the reload to prepare for the war.

DON'T unilaterally double move now. If you think we don't have a good solution yet, then pause it and we'll discuss it.