Beyond the Pit [Pitboss Diplomacy Game] [Organization Thread IV]

[The Capo]

Okay, I might as well chime in.

First of all; I am sorry if I indicated you cheated Cyber. But you must realize what it looked like, and the realities of the situation. I made an effort not to directly call your name out, or to actually say you cheated. So I do not feel like I am at fault for any of this.

REMOVED

As far as what I did being wrong (getting troops from Greece to use against Greece). Perhaps it was wrong, but history is written by the victors, and I did what I felt necessary at the time to get my country in the best possible position. Sure, if the tables were turned I'd be angry too, but I wouldn't go around saying I broke any Diplogame rules. I didn't, and that's my position on the matter. If you think I did so be it, if others do so be it, but I am fighting a country with Rifling and a country that is about to have machine guns. I need every possible advantage I can get. I will not be returning any of your units, so have at me. I knew what I was getting into when I did it. I am going to execute Lyssander Mikanos. I had other plans originally, but now that you have made your story posts I will work with you and continue your storyline, but he is going to be executed by Kim. I don't run my stories black and white, my characters are both evil and good, they are like real people with flaws and faults. Kim is no different, he is not a good person, he was an assassin, he is a violent man. He is a man of his times and I will make him no different simply to make me look better. I suggest everyone does the same with their characters; it makes the game more vibrant that way.

If you guys think I am "arrogant" or any other variation of that word I am sorry, but I am who I am. I plan my stories very carefullly, and this one is no different. You wanted to do a story with me Cyber and you got one, and this is it. Instead of being angry with me you should realize this is one of the coolest stories to come out in a long time, and even if it makes your Empire look bad (you know fighting and dominating a weaker one) then that is the price you have to pay for your power. But in my mind this is the best outcome there could have been; an unintended outcome of the highest order. When once friendship between our countries looked as strong as it ever was this happens, when once my Emperor finally defeated his enemies he realized there was one he did not account for. This story shows how politics can effect even the lowest of the low, and the smallest of the small.

But make no mistake, I do believe everything I said. Your country, whether intended or not, has been the bane of Korea's existance. A war with Sparta is necessary, even in defeat Korea will benefit from it. We must separate ourselves fromy our yoke of oppression, and we shall as well as we can. I'd rather die on my feet than serve on my knees.

I do not think I will lose, I have every intention on victory. I will not quit until I have won, you had better prepare for a war of attrition.

Peace,

- The Capo

[Pitboss Spain]

I was wondering why I was replayng my moves,. Deja vu.

[Pitboss Greece]

Capo: I do not blame you for thinking I cheated. I've said that before, these things can be thought in the heat of the moment. No problem. I'm glad we solved it.

And yes, like I've said yesterday, also keep an eye on me. Especially game hosts should be watched. No human is perfect and I could also fal for cheating. I hope I never will, but you are right, nobody can be trusted

Now regarding your storyline, I think I've already said that I think it's brilliant and you're going to get 3 votes for both story and diplo.
I just dislike the soldiers thing. Especially because it is too forged.
Lately I did a stupid offer to Rome, he just took it, knowing how stupid I was. Then I realised, and tried to fix it. I've never blamed Rome for taking it. I was stupid for offering him.

Our situation is different. You asked for troops. I refused, for reasons of protection of my own border. But you kept begging. Then I finally said ok.
If I would have given these troops voluntarily, then you would have had a point. But you begged me. I don't consider that to be a good plot.

I was not stupid. I even felt like I should keep defence. But because you requested 3 times, I finally gave in. I think it's a bit cheap.
But like I said, I think that I can stand up against you and your evil army of Spartans.
But now things became even more evil, I realised last night!

Now the Maya are sailing to the land bridge with a fleet of 1 frigate and 4 galleons.
I am 100% sure that they are going to land there.
Now the funny thing: I had a very good naval defence! 4 frigates and 1 submarine.
But you asked 1 (again same procedure, begging and begging) and the Maya asked me to please sail some frigates to the east to protect their coasts.

So now I only have 1 frigate and 1 ironclad defending my landbridge.
Once again because I send troops to you guys to help the both of you.

This is a double double cross move.
I'll tell you this, if the Mayans are now going to land on my land bridge as well, easily passing my naval defence (which I sent to the east to help the Maya!) then I'm done with it.

I can have some back stabbing and some evil plans against me.
Hell, I've accepted a nucleair holocaust from Toni once, and played on when Ozzy took about half my empire. I have lived in the tundra one entire game once next to Nolan because I didn't want to attack her.

But this is definitely past every line.
Maya and Korea pulling a total fake defence-pact deal with Sparta, which only started this deal to help Korea!!!
Korea and Maya played fake enemies, including settling false city disputes.
Korea begging for defence, I jumping in to once again help Korea.
But it's all a cheat story, only to cheat my armies away and attack me when I have moved my armies because you asked me.

I call that story-cheating.
I can defend my empire against evil empires. Maybe I fail at it, but that's my responsibility. But this is beyond all fun.
The Maya army is twice my army. And they still need to cheat my frigates away?

I'll tell you:
1. if you attack me with my own army, expect a tough fight from Sparta (this is an in-game reaction)
2. if you destroy my great engineer, expect me going fully crazy on you (this is still an in-game reaction) (though I consider it very cheap, given the fact that you double tricked it into you land, even promising to build roads to let it move faster!)
3. If maya also tricks itself in this war by attacking the land bridge: I'm done with it.

Even I have a moment where I can't stand the story cheatery any more.
Understand that most players would most probably already leave at step 1.

CS

[Pitboss Greece]

Oh, and why did you not just ask Rifles from the Maya to attack me with?

[Pitboss Khmer]

It is true that this player has soldiered on in many games when most would have quit.

His in-game character is often detested by some.

He plays a good story and good diplo.

He came to Meduian and attempted all manner of treacherous things when many others (inc myself) kept beavering away... he stands out as something, either hated or loved, when many of us stand for much less or even nothing.

We all have a breaking point when we feel OOC that the IC action is overwhelmingly unfair and feel the need to say something - except Whiplash! In his case he ONLY had to say something.

I still think Sparta should play it out no matter what, no matter how unfair. AND to be called a cheat OOC as well! And not only in this game I might add...

Obviously Korea has been planning this and it is as MMC said perfectly acceptable in diplo terms so I don't agree with Sparta on that.

But what I do know is that as a decent human being AND because of the cheating allegations that were totally unfounded I would strongly urge Korea and her allies to cut Sparta some slack - inflict a small loss and work it out in the story thread.

WE HAVE TO CUT SPARTA SOME SLACK HERE.

[Pitboss Greece]

New Can of Worms (and an easy solution)

Korea has double moved on me.

1630: Sparta plays his turn
1630: Korea played his turn, moved his units to the Spartan border
1635: Korea declares war and moves his units inside Sparta's borders
1635: Sparta plays his turn

I'm not going to call for a reload or penalties, etc. etc.
Let's just fix this easily: I'll double move back on him, and then we'll be even.
My double move will not harm Korea at all: I'll just only move my Great Engineer into a save zone, that's it. (without Korea's double move he would've been safe in Sparta's territory!)

A fix for the Maya invasion fleet: If Maya moves is fleet back to the east for 6 tiles, and then continues, then I'll be fine with it.
It gives me time to bring back my frigates, and we have an even and equal sea battle (unless he can still avoid meeting my frigates / ironclads)

I make this proposal to keep things interesting and fun for all of us.
Korea and Maya can continue their backstabbing on me, but I get some slack.

So:
A. I get a chance to bring my Great Engineer to a save place by moving first next turn
B. Maya moves his fleet 6 tiles to the east before he continues to sail to the land bridge

That'll make things ok for me.
I'm trying to fix things, I hope that Maya and Korea will work along.

[Pitboss Khmer]

I'm not sure that's a double move as war isn't declared until 1635AD; BUT totally agree on saving the GE. Not so sure about the Maya thing, need his input but I'm sure his embarrasment will soften his negotiations with you

SUGGESTION to Maya: Perhaps don't move back but negotiate significant benefits from a position of strength - ie disband the AET!!

[Pitboss Khmer]

Cyber, only 5 hours to go and many have not replayed their turn. Can we pause it in 4 hours time if they haven't played? Xristo will chuck a fit

[Pitboss Greece]

I can't pause now, I'm not home.
I can go home early and pause the game, but then those players who did not play yet then only have 30 minutes or 1 hour to play their time.... it's hard to decide when to 'open' those 30-60 minutes then....

Regarding the Double Move: it is a double move. Korea moved twice without Sparta moving in between. I would have been able to bring my engineer to a save spot if I had a chance to move between Korea's turns, my engineer would've been safe.

I think that during the Roman-Spartan wars we agreed that the double-move thing started from the moment that the warring units 'saw' each other (ie. the double move would have an impact on the war).

There is a double move and there is an impact and there is a war. Sounds like a double move to me.

[The Capo]

How is that a double move? We weren't at war until I moved my units into your territory. If anything YOU will have double moved if you move any time before the 13:00:00 mark!

EDIT: Look, I have already apologized for implying there was cheating. But again, I didn't implicitly say it. Yes I did think he cheated when I logged in, but as I said before I realized I was wrong and it was a strange game mechanic issue and its over. And I thought this becuase I was told he messed with the map (again I was NOT here when the game started, so no I did not see the planning thread, so NO I did not see the explanation that was posed). Its ridiculous that I am getting crap for this here, this is just like when deity flipped out in HOTW5 when I set him up for the Lahore bombing. You need to relax a little bit. Why should I alter any of my strategy just because of any of this?

[Robert]

The Capo, nobody is putting crap on you! I explicitly said that I didn't blame you for what you said, and that I understood it.
And I understand that you and Pinchak have totally planned this cheap trick against me becuase you 'believed' (or he made you believe) that I had cheated over the map.

Now it has been made clear that I NEVER cheated with the map, maybe you can also stop this ridiculous cheap move on me? I proposed an easy fix. Let me safe my engineer and let Pinchak pull back his fleet for 2 turns.
Then we can continue 'normal' after that. (It's still cheap, but I'll have to deal with that. I am willing to find a compromis, are you?)

And yes, it is a double move. You move twice without me in between moving which gave you an advantage. This is a war situation. The fact that the first move was before the war actually started and the 2nd move after the war actually started doesn't change that.

[OzzyKP]

1. There was NO double move. War was not declared. The fact that Capo was getting his units in position for a surprize attack is absolutely allowed. It would be absolutely absurd for a civ to say "hey, I'm going to launch a surprize attack on you in 2 turns, be sure to play after me so I don't double move." No, there has to be at least *some* advantage to moving first and catching an enemy off guard. All wars would be jokes otherwise.

2. Using Greece's units against him is NOT illegal. It is very poor form however. Whether or not Korea begged doesn't really matter. It is a kinda shady move, but nothing that can't be dealt with IN GAME. Other nations should be less trusting of Korea in response, and perhaps (under more equal circumstances) Greece's vengeance would be less restrained. I'm sure Korea expects severe consequences from such a move and has planned accordingly. Therefore they accept the risk of such an underhanded move and the game continues. It is NOT cheating. It is shady (and therefore GOOD strategy).

3. Sparta should not be cut any slack. If there is anything we should believe about diplogames it is that through shrewd diplomacy a nation can dramatically better their position in the world. Often, unless your name is Toni & Deity, the only way you can better your position is through some kind of war and/or backstabbing. This is ENCOURAGED in diplogames. In fact I think it is one of the most interesting parts and is essential for the game. It really doesn't happen often enough in my opinion. There are very, very few players ballsy enough to cast off alliances, take huge risks, and stab powerful neighbors in the back for the potential of gain. In fact Capo and Rasputin are two of the only players I have seen in all my days willing to do such a bold maneuver. Obviously it sucks to be on the receiving end of it, but I can't tell you how refreshing it is.

These games continue to fall into a very, very predictable pattern. Deity & Toni are very good builders. They peacefully build massive empires, gobble up obscene amounts of wonders and create huge, unwieldy alliances to protect their lead. Then they sit there and build till one of them launches a spaceship. Both too petrified of giving up some advantage by risking a big war. Obviously they (sorry to single them out) and other top players thrive on the status quo. Players on top remain on top. Plus since top players often have a significant tech advantage and production advantage there is very little chance for anyone to challenge them. ESPECIALLY when top players all team up, or top players assemble a huge alliance of small to medium powers to protect their lead.

The only way to actually have some fluidity in the rankings is for medium-small players to team up and execute a well coordinated war of attrition with their backwards troops. Or pull off a brilliant tactical stab in the back like Capo. Large war plans, sadly, in my experience have usually met with failure. People are too timid by nature and unwilling to commit proper resources to such a risky war. Or it is too difficult to get people to actually work together properly.

Ok, I'm rambling.

4. My Point. A turn or two ago Korea was in LAST PLACE. They are hopelessly out-teched, out-expanded, and out-classed by everyone in the game. If we care about diplogames at all we have to believe that a last place civ is able to move up. Also, if we care about diplogames at all we have to believe top civs can move down. It is a mighty indignity for a top civ to lose half their empire, surely. But it is a greater indignity for a player to never have half those cities in the first place and be doomed to last place for all eternity. Greece is bragging about how they will have machine guns soon. Yet they want sympathy. How many of us have machine guns? I'm in 7th place and I'm not close. I'd wager perhaps two or three civs out of 17 are that advanced. And we are supposed to feel sorry for Greece because a LAST PLACE civ stabbed them in the back? No. Sorry. Korea, you have a free hand. Kill the engineer, take some cities, do what you have to do. If a 4th place civ gets dropped back to 7th ( *gasp* ) well what's wrong with being in 7th? If a 1st place civ gets dropped back to 10th, how is that worse than languishing at 10th all game?

We need these rankings to be flexible. There are too few players bold enough to shake things up. I think they should be supported however possible.

So bravo Capo. I hope you do well against the impossible odds stacked against you.

[OzzyKP]

And I know full well that CS has been one of the few players who has rode out games proudly while in a very crappy position in a very low in-game ranking. For that he should only be praised. I'm not implying remotely that he will only play if he is a top player (what Maya always accuses me of).

Starting out crappy and finishing crappy is different than being an amazing top civ and having that all taken away from you. It *feels* unfair. But it isn't. I think it is essential for the game.

It is unfortunate a player as amazing and stable as CS is on the receiving end. Especially after playing so many crappy starts, I was so glad to see him get a top civ. But.. it is still important for the game.

In the end though it is likely this gamble will fail. With Greece's tech lead and more able game skill, he'll probably crush Korea. But damn, don't we all want to see what happens?

[Robert]

snoopy368 (or something) on double moves: http://apolyton.net/forums/showpost....&postcount=715

Don't forget to include the turn BEFORE the war as well as the turn of the war - as opposed to what was posted a few posts above. Double moving to start a war is really worse than doing it during a war.

This was said during the setup of this game.
Snoopy is not in this game, he's an 'external expert'.

It is only obvious that the turn before the war starts should be part of the double move rule. A child can understand that. The double move rule has been invented to play simultanious all the time, but avoid uneven advantages during war time.
The turn before the war starts is critical for obvious reasons!

[Robert]

Ozzy, this is not about the backstabbing.
It is about making things totally unrealistic by acting as fake enemies, coming with fake negotiations, ask for fake military help. It's all fake.
It's not misleading, it's fake.

Maya and Korea were not enemies, they were sneakily friends plotting together by faking tensions between them to trick me in to help korea, move my troops to korea, only then to both attack me.

That's not realistic at all. Diplogaming is also about being realistic, ruling your kingdom like a real ruler would do.
If we start doing this stuff, it'll be the end of diplogaming. It'll be just ladder gaming.

Nobody will send units to his neighbours anymore for help. Nobody will trust pact negotiations with friends. Friendships will be impossible at all.
You never can be sure. Maybe I give this tech to civ x this turn and next turn he'll use it against me.

It's absurd to think that Belgium and Holland act as if they are enemies, France tries to mediate, while in secret Holland and Belgium are plotting together. Then France sends in some troops to defend Belgium, only to then suddenly see Belgium and Holland join forces together to invade France together with French troops.

That is not diplogaming anymore.
It's ladder playing. Well, it'll end up being ladder playing, because from now on nobody will trust nobody anymore. Pacts make no sence. Deals make no sence.

Again: backstabbing is ok, but not "acting like you hate civ X, only to be sneaky friends with civ X and then attack civ Y together with civ X 1 turn later"

Apart from hurting sparta now it'll hurt diplogaming at general.
I asked Rome for help if the Maya join this battle, but Rome said that he had just signed a deal with the Maya to not attack Maya. Clever move by the Maya indeed, but why should Rome live up to this deal? He can backstab the Maya now.
It just opens a can of worms where nobody can trust each other and any pact is worthless. Happy diplogaming.