Beyond the Pit [Pitboss Diplomacy Game] [Organization Thread IV]

[The Capo]

Dude, what are you talking about?

I did not double move. I attacked you in 1635 (and by attack I mean entering his territory) which caused the war to start. It is soon to be the next turn. I have made one move at war. ONE. You can't double move in one turn.

This next turn, as per the rules of war that we have I go first because you moved last. That is the rule we have, I don't know where you are getting this notion that I double moved. I am logging into the game right now, you are in the game, if you moved you have comitted a double move. I hope you didn't but you shouldn't even be logged in until six hours into thenext turn.

[Robert]

I'm not talking about reloading.
I'll just move first next turn, that'll fix everything and itwon't harm Korea at all.

It'll just bring my engineer in a safe haven, like it would've been safe if The Capo would not have double moved. That's all.
It's an easy fix and it'll end all problems.

It's just The Capo is too stubborn to admit he double moved while he was always the first to yell Capo-style at others who double moved.

[Robert]

Capo:

Capo:
1630: Sparta moves
1630: Korea moves
1635: Korea moves
1635: Sparta moves

bold = double move
red = war
bold red = double war move

[Robert]

Ah, good! Korea joined this game!
Now I'm not moving before The Capo but simultanious with him.
That'll fix things even more Thanks Capo!

[Robert]

It was snoopy369 who advised is about this double move rule, and how it works in other games. He said:

Don't forget to include the turn BEFORE the war as well as the turn of the war - as opposed to what was posted a few posts above. Double moving to start a war is really worse than doing it during a war.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showpost.php?p=5300634&postcount=715

More quotes from others

All players agreed to play the game fairly and honestly at the start. All players agreed to not taking advantage of game mechanics or game limitations to manipulate the game results. One of these being the double move. Double moves are prohibited at times of war unless a player fails to take his turn within 4 hrs of the game turn end.

This one is from Pinchak, also interesting:

The same goes with the "double move" exploit. Without spelling out a specific rule there will come a time when someone gets screwed by a double move and the accused offender pleads that he didn't do it intentially. This WILL happen. The solution is again to spell out for everyone what the "self control" is.

Therefore I would like to put the following rule on the table for voting. EIGHT HOUR RULE: If you find yourself the last to play a turn (thus causing it to flip) you cannot declair war or attack a unit for 8 hours after ending that turn.

It's clear from the setup thread when we created this rule that Declaring war was a part of the double move rule. Very very clear.

But I'll be cool to The Capo and not yell 'cheater' at him, but just fix things by moving first now. period.

[The Capo]

Ah, good! Korea joined this game!
Now I'm not moving before The Capo but simultanious with him.
That'll fix things even more Thanks Capo!

I actually am not in the game, I left the game with 15 minutes left on the timer to see if Cyber was actually going to go in and do this. And he apparently is. Look, I didn't double move during war you can even see it in his little post that is supposed to show how I did. He is currently, and intentionally cheating. I even asked him in game, I have screens, to either get a save of the game or pause the game so we can sort it out and he refused to do it. Then he tried to convince me that "its just an engineer let it go," which is ironically the same thing I have to say to him.

Look, I know I keep saying this, but I understand that he is upset. But this is just getting over the top. I can't deal with this, its getting personal and its just too much for a Diplogame to go through. So I'll say it this way;

- If cyber plays before me. And does not wait until six hours into this turn he is cheating. He said he was going to do it beforehand, it is premeditated and he had ample opportunity not to do it. I told him to at least pause the game, or to get a save prepared for a reload if he did it. He said no.

- Since he is definitely going to do it, I again call for a reload.

- I don't think there should be punishment for Cyber, because he thinks what he is doing is right. But this is definitely a bad sign, and I think he is clearly a bad host. We should get a new host.

That is what I think, I think everyone should chime in but there's no way I'm continuing if we let this slide. This is nonsense.

[Pitboss Persia]

And from then on I only have to produce riflemen and machinegunners and fight against his musketeers. This would be the most uneven fight in diplogame history.

Sorry, but I DO remember the siege of Rouen in HOTW XII...

[Robert]

Capo, did you read those quotes from when we established this double move turn?
From your friend pinchak, ie? It is clear that in the setup of this game we included the turn-before war or the declaration of war be a part of the double move rule.

You did not know that, you were not there when we established the rule.
But now you do know it, how can you continue to act like it's not true?
You have double moved, no problem, I've just fixed it. We can now just continue in the right order of things.

Have a nice war and don't be stubborn.

[Robert]

And from then on I only have to produce riflemen and machinegunners and fight against his musketeers. This would be the most uneven fight in diplogame history.

It does not compare to my fight with Toni, where I had like 20 infantry and he had 160 tanks and 10 nukes (yes, he used the nukes)

Not to mention that the odds are heigh that I'll have mercy on you.
that's my stupid nature. I hope that others keep me from that

[The Capo]

No, of course I didn't read that. But it doesn't matter because I read YOUR rule and according to that I did not make a double move, but you did. So I am requesting, as per your rule itself, that we reload the game. That you abide by YOUR rule and either wait six hours to move, or wait for me to move first. I can't believe you are doing this, I had much more respect for you and did not expect this out of you at all. But like I said before, you never know when people are going to do stupid things and I guess a Great Engineer is more important to you than your own integrity.

Tomorrow is my birthday, so I am going to go out tonight. I will probaly be home late, but I'll be sure to check and see what is going on here. I don't know why you didn't pause the game, I asked you to and you refused for some reason. I don't know how you expect me to sit back and let you get away with this garbage. As far as what Pinchak's quote says, to avoid taking it out of context I am going to wait for Pinchak himself to make a comment on this matter. I'd also like other people to do so as well, but I have to say it was in pretty bad form.

[Pitboss Maya]

The double move rule, as written by Cybershy, and included in the first post of every Org Thread for this game...

Civilizations that are at war have to wait 6 hours after the new turn started after their last move. When all opponents have moved before those 6 hours have passed the player can move as again well.

In turn 1630 Korea and Greece were not at war.

It is really as simple as this.

[Robert]

Pinchak: Therefore I would like to put the following rule on the table for voting. EIGHT HOUR RULE: If you find yourself the last to play a turn (thus causing it to flip) you cannot declair war or attack a unit for 8 hours after ending that turn.

We have never very well formulated the rule, but we have always intended that the declaration of war was part of the 'not before 6 hour have passed after you moved last'.

I'll update the formulating of the rule.
But it would be insane if the turn before the declaration of war would not be included. That's the key-turn!

In turn 1630 Korea and Greece were not at war.

But in 1635 we did have a war.
So the double move happend partly during the period of war.
The game rules do not explicitly say when the double rule move starts. Only if both turns are 'in war' or also if 1 turn is in the war.
But when we scroll back to see what we (including you pinchak!) intended when we created the rule (and formulated it poorly) we see that we included the turn before.
Not only we, external sources also do.
And if you search civfanatics you see that as a reoccuring rule: the declaration of war should also not be a 'double rule'.

The turn before the war is of vital impotant!
If Civ A is going to declare war on Civ B,
and if X is the turn of war declaration, then at X-1 civ B doesn't know yet he'll be invaded.
he plays his turn, at the end of the turn Civ A moves to his border, at X he declares war and invades civ B.
Then at the end of turn X civ b joins in to find that civ A has moved war-units 6 tiles (roads) and declared war on him!

It's againt the philosophy of turn-based gaming!
It's against the spirit of the rule we created!
We created the rule to avoid that someone would get advantage of a double move during wartime.
That's exactly what happened! Korea had an advantage, he double moved and it was in a war situation.,
Why are we even discussing this?

And we do you guys keep on ignoring my arguments but just repeat your oneliner: "capo is right capo is right"

[The Capo]

I have to go dig my car out of some snow, then I have to leave soon after that so I don't have much time to really debate this but I'll make a few quick points;

1) It seems to me this is all of the sudden part of the rule. Someone correct me if this is wrong.

2) Did I not call for a specifically worded rule from you at least three times and everytime you said no?

3) Regardlesss, there was no double move. And I didn't have to "set up" an army, the damn army was there in Pusan the entire time. What he keeps referring to as moving my men into position is nonsense. He knows damn well where they were the entire time. There is no advantage to putting anything into position because the army was there for over a week!

4) Thirdly, you have taken it upon yourself in your "infinite wisdom" to blatantly cheat yourself. calling it a fix. When all you are attempting to do is save your damn Great Engineer, which you are LUCKY I didn't kill in the first place. This is pathetic, and you are pathetic. Anyone who defended this clown simply because they like his personality should rethink that attitude.

Anyway I have some snow to shovel. So I'll comment on this later, but I am not playing **** until this gets reloaded/resolved.

[Pitboss Rome]

Moving to resolution

We clearly have a problem here.

Two observations and a suggestion.

Observations

1. There are seventeen of us playing this game. Three are involved in a war. A couple of others have been involved in the disucssion of the problem. That still leaves a sizeable majority just having their game ruined. I lost three turns of play with the reloading, then wasn't able to play this turn, and now I face playing again not knowing if its going to be reloaded. Diplomacy is being shreded - am I olibliged to follow treaties which haven't yet been negotiated? Do I replay turns knowing the deals I will make next turn? I hope that those involved can remember than they are no more important than the rest of us.

2. The arguments made in favour and against on here on the double move issue aren't getting us very far. The 'sides' you might expect are being repeated; I won't bother to add my voice but its fairly predictable. Lets be honest (a) its because the issue isn't clear - i can certainly see both sides and (b) none of us are objective - the are IG reasons for various of us supporting on side or another.

Suggestion

We get someone who is not playing to simply decide what should happen. Quickly. Whatever they decide someone is going to be very unhappy, but that's life. The best we can do to save the game and so those of us who aren't involved don't get too fed up is find a way of resolving this quickly and decisively, and that means a person, who isn't playing, deciding. And that being final.

Who? Well I don't know the apolyton community at all. So I suggest that Ozzy (who clearly does, and who has expressed fairly neutral views on here) appoints someone. And that person decides. No 'presentations' online to that person, turning the thing into some sort of debate when all of us just want to get on playing, no arguements about whether the person Ozzy chooses isnt impartial, no arguments afterwards about whether their judgement was fair. No requirement that they explain why - indeed I would prefer they didn't because their explanation will only then be discussed ad nausiam. They just say what should happen.

(Sorry Ozzy to land you with this without asking, but I think we just need to get somewhere fast.)

[Robert]

I'm not against appoint 3 people, and I'm certainly not against Ozzy doing this.
But it's costing us time. If you do a search on apolyton or CFC then you see that this 'turn before war' or 'declaration of war after 6 hours' rule is in place everywhere.

It's not for nothing that snoopy (a VERY experienced civer!! close to the firaxis crew) advised us to incorporate it.

Of course we can pause the game for so many hours, but it's waste of time.
Everbody incorporates it.
I think that even the ancient Maya-Korea double move was a double move like this. (But I'm not sure about that)

Seriously guys, I am not full of crap.
Ok, we don't have to pause this game, let us just continue.
We'll investigate this issue, and if I am wrong I'll promse to disban my Great Engineer.
It'll take me a couple of turns anywhere to get it where I want it.

That way this dispute will not ruin the game for the rest of the players.