Beyond the Pit [Pitboss Diplomacy Game] [Organization Thread III]

[Pinchak]

Too many posts. Too few posts. Too much land. Too little land. Not enough war. Too much war. Not enough resources. Too many resources. Too much drama. Not enough drama.

I have heard ALL of these arguments (and can quote them upon request).

Your civ Ozzy has a lake, river, plains, grassland, hills, metal.... what else did you want to make it "interesting"? A freeking waterfall?

If you compare this map to a randomly generated map you will see the resources come out about the same.

I'm tired of defending the map. I had to try to please 17 people, while in the middle of a real life move, with a deadline.

If you are not happy with the area you have.... fight for more land, or explore new lands.

Yes, the American/Celt/Metal/HRE area might be more crowded then most. IMO you guys should have used this to your advantage.

Set up a united block (perhaps to deal with the unwieldy Khmer), or established early trade (some civs with lots of land also had limited contact with other civs in the early game). Set up a tech block to get astronomy quickly so you could do early overseas exploration. Or eat one of your neighbors....

I don't want to get into a debate about this either Ozzy but I feel that your pessimistic view of this game is mostly a result of it not fitting into the neat definition of what you think a diplogame should be. I do agree with some of your arguments to a point, but hindsight is always 20/20. The map is not in anyway, at any point, "unplayable" as you say.

[Pitboss Maya]

Rome has neglected to wait 6 hours into this turn before moving again, after being the last in our war to move last turn.

Double move.

Oh Beyond the Pit High Court.... what are the penalties since we don't really have an established penalty?

The clock stands at 14:30.... needs to be 13 or less....

[Pitboss Japan]

From the rules set forth he only gets a pat on his head and told not to do it again.

[Rasputin]

give him the same penalty the mayans got

[Pitboss Maya]

So someone could just wait till a critical point in a war and double move knowing they only get a pat on the head?

Thats bull.

Raz, go crawl back in your hole.

My double move (and we have gone over this a hundred times) gave me absolutely no advantage.

[MMC]

I must admit, I have to agree with a lot of what Ozzy has said, if for different reason in some cases.

The Map: My ideal map is one where you are still exploring and finding new places and new people well into the late game. Not a slow game, but one with lots of little hidden pockets that aren't really revealed until you launch a satellite.
That said, it is impossible to please everyone every time, and I really think this is a great map (aside from some minor gripes - HUTS ). What seems to have ruined it slightly for me is the rapid spread of maps. The world suddenly appeared with little effort and the fun of exploring mostly disappeared.

The posts: I totally agree with Ozzy. A few long and informative posts are often much better than lots of short posts about what the king thought of the graffiti as he sat on the toilet.

Real Life™: Again, I agree with Ozzy. Stuff happens. Real life can be just as dramatic, perhaps more so, than pretty much any story post or game event. It's often more important too.

Drama: One word: Ras. I have nothing against the guy personally, but I do find that people who whine about their situation when they are easily in a better position than me just get on my nerves. I have spent most of the game in the bottom 3, but I have yet to complain (this post doesn't count - it's a statement of boredom, not a complaint).

Two continents: I don't have a problem with this. Yes, the posts get overwhelming, but I can skim-read the post that don't concern or interest me, and only concentrate on the rest. In fact, I love the idea of distant civs whom I won't meet until later in the game. In the story it can lead to rumours and more (for example, the official Funglish position at the moment is that the word Japan is nothing more than the Khmerish equivalent of "Here be Dragons")

Theme: I don't really have a theme for my civ, but nor do I follow history. I simply report on what has happened in my civ since the last post. As well as alluding to future plans. Nothing more complicated than that. Although on the few occasions when I refer to something outside of the game, I do it in a way that is meant to bring a smile to the readers face, and not make them cringe as they watch their favourite TV series get mutilated in an attempt to gain story votes (OSS Enterprise - The main reason I want to shoot Ras). Plus in Ozzy's favour, the Oswald storyline wasn't actually his idea. It was thrust upon him and he ran with it. Very well too.

Neighbourhood: I didn't have much of a problem here, although I can appreciate that I and Khmer may have been the only players to communicate regularly with Ozzy in the early part of the game.

Imbalance: Yes, there is imbalance, and there has been mention of plans to rectify this, but the important players seem to be caught up in ancient feuds among themselves, with little regard to the big picture.

Like Ozzy, I have no intention of quitting. Even though the game is not as interesting as it could be, I will continue for the good of the game, and firmly in the knowledge that things will change as the game progresses. I predict a very interesting period ahead. Initially for our continent, and later for the world.

[Robert]

First thing first: the Romans double moved indeed.
@Maya: was there a war-move? Was there a move that gave him advantage?
If so, what advantage?

Now about Ozzy:

1. The Map
I only agree with Ozzy that the map is too huge.
I don't think that any civ has too little land. Every civ can cramp out at least 10 cities.
I think that the land is very varied and diverse. It's not true that there are only a few types of resources per civ.
But it's true that not 1 civ has 15 different resources. I think that's good.
But the map is indeed a too large. Oh well, it at least gives everyone room to expand. The bad side is that it's hard
to have wars far from home.

2. Too many posts
I've said that before. People should restrain themselves on posting.
But truth must be told, the too many posts don't hurt me at all. I just can't read everyting.
If things are boring or repetative, then I do'nt read them, unless I need to know of course what's happening.
I think it's already way better then in the beginning, which is good!

3. Real World
C'mon, it's pitboss only 1 turn a day. I have a wife, two children, a full time job, an academical study, I am youth elder
in our church and even I Have plenty of time to be involved It's not about time issues, it's about priority issues.
But: is she hot? Post a picture!

4. This type of game is new, we had to sort out a lot of things, like timer length, double move rules, we had to deal with
a new kind of posting-speed. (slower game = more posts), etc. etc.
I think that the bickering isn't as much as it used to be anymore.
Anyway, just ignore it and there's no problem.


5. Two continents, well, I agree with that, but it was popular choise. I'm not sure what you voted, I was against it, but now
I'm dealing with it.

6. Your theme.... well, I think your theme is interesting, original and creative, but doesn't belong in a diplogame where
everybody else is playing serious civs.

7. Your neighbourhood, well, that's the problem indeed. You guys are all quite inactive.
There's an active continent and an inactive continent. Some civs show some more activity (Khmer, Spain) but most are silent.
And Khmer and Spains activities are focussed on the other continent. (of course, because their neighbours (Including you!) are
boring).
If people don't response, send an army to them.
But you're right, the 8-civ continent isn't really entertaining. I'd say: you're part of it, do something about it!
It only needs a few civs to get things going.

8. Imbalance
Every diplogame I have been in has had imbalances.
I think that this is one of the most balanced maps I've played on.
And I have played civs that were far more behind then some civs now.

But when all civs have spend their vouchers we may have a talk to give some extra vouchers to the bottom-tech civs.
Of course only when we introduce a new rule: only trading 1 voucher for 1 tech, not giving them away.
But imbalance can never be a reason in a diplogame for complains.
I mean, I'm dutch, you're american, talking about imbalance


End of line: I think that Pinchak has a point though, you are more interested in games where you're a big civ.
When you were England or Metalheads you didn't show very much interest.
That's not just you, that most probaly counts for everyone.

But please, I have participated in all those games where you were doing good, now I am finally doing good, please
don't quit now I'm having a ball. I've never turned my back to you either.

You can be my vassal if you want

But seriously, tell us more about the girl!
What does she think about age-discrimination and youth rights

[Pitboss Rome]

Many, many apologies folks for the double move.

The truth is that I have no sight of any Mayan units, and so I wasn't at all conscious of whether they had moved or not, and certainly wasn't anticipating any advantage - just trying to fit in playing then the timer today means that the turn will flip when I am in work all day today, so tried to get a move in late last night my time.

You might remember that I have had a war for many, many turns with Sparta which is completely 'cold' - not seen a spartan unit for a long long time, so I haven't been watching double move in relation to Sparata. I guess the spartans haven't either.

No excuse, i know. Particularly if this has actually harmed the Maya in any way. But when you have a completely cold war, with no units in sight, it is a bit different that a double move in the middle of a real war.

Must get back to RL - hope Cyber can sort appropriately.

[Robert]

If there's no advantage, then there's no double move.
To make 'no advantage' more specific: there are no enemy units in sight of the double-moving units.

When the Maya double moved they were told to return any advantage they got from the move: the worker.

Now I say that Rome should return every advantage they got from their double move. If that's not possible please we will reload.

Please maya: elaborate the Roman advantage.

I will remove all posts from others then maya or rome that concern this issue to avoid a new excalation of arguments an fighting.
Yes, I am a dictator

[deity]

Originally posted by OzzyKP
It would be foolish for me to be upset or bummed

Stop your whingering ozzy or I'll stick a BAT up your nightdress...

[Pitboss Portugal]

OOC

Sorry dear dictator.

I will be short!!!

Game is GREAT.

End

[Pitboss Japan]

This game is great and it would be better if the civs on the other side of the world would not be so boring. then again if it were not for the Mayans and the Greeks this side wouldn't be much better either.

[The Capo]

Originally posted by CyberShy
If there's no advantage, then there's no double move.
To make 'no advantage' more specific: there are no enemy units in sight of the double-moving units.

I don't personally agree with this concept. Although if he is unclear about the rule (which he seems to be) then he is unclear. Basically Rome you CAN'T double move at all, even if you don't see what other people are doing (there are spies after all). If you are unsure about whether or not you should move I'd suggest checking the BtP CivStats thread (CLICK HERE, and bookmark if you haven't already done so) to see who has moved. Right now you are at war with Piercia and Maya, so just check and see when they moved. If they haven't moved yet after your last turn then you have to wait for the timer (which I believe is 18hrs) to read 12:00:00 hours left before you make another move.

And Cyber, the worst attitude to take here is to say "well let's see what the apparent damage is," you and I both know that position of troops can make or break a war. In real-life and in civ. And honestly Maya is right; if only warnings are given its like a free pass. So while I don't think anything should really come of this, because it looks innocent enough, we can't be so lenient about it. Since Rome has done it now, there is an example for other people to follow and I think explained it pretty cut-and-dry, so there should be no excuse for anyone doing it again.

[Pitboss Celts]

Originally posted by Pitboss Portugal


OK Ozzy, i will play your turn tonight.

Let it be noted that the Celts are not attacking this turn since negotiations have begun.

[Pitboss Rome]

The Capo, I accept what you are saying that the double move thing is important.

But think about the situation between myself and the Spartans. We have been at war for what - 100 turns at least. Now when we had troops in contact with each other, we were both careful to avoid double moves, but is it realistic for 100s of turns to keep being restricted to a 13 hour turn window, when there isn't any advantage in the double move to anyone? What I mean is that there is 'war' and 'war' - given Spartan attitudes ( ) I am likely to remain at war for the whole game, does that mean every turn has to be carefully timed in this way?

So I think that Cyber's approach that the degree of seriousness of the offence has to be related to whether any advantage was gained, not just on some technicality