Beyond the Pit [Pitboss Diplomacy Game] [Organization Thread II]

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by Pitboss Portugal
Korea i haven't snubbed anyone and I am not crying. You have of course the right to say your opinion but at least know the facts.

Ozzy how can you compare me to Carpathia, when I am not the attacker and agressor. What u did back in HOTW 12 was self defence against him. Portugal hasn't said one bad thing towards Rome for 3000 years.

And Korea you have no idea how much diplomacy there has been going on, but Rome changes his mind every time.

I understand that you aren't the aggressor. I understand also that you are trying to negotiate and Rome keeps changing their mind. These are all factors you can use to your favor diplomatically to get allies and help.

I think that all is poor form on the part of Rome, but not against the rules.

The way it compares is that you are more powerful (at least point wise) and Rome is trying to knock you down a peg. That is fully allowed in diplogames. It is just a matter of how far he pushes, how able you are to push back, and how the fence sitters decide on the merits of each side. If he keeps failing to negotiate in good faith, then that is a strong argument you can make to others in the area (like Greece I suppose) to come to your aid.

Ultimately, until this war gets to the point of crippling either side (and it doesn't seem close to it) then you guys just need to fight it out. If Rome is proving themselves to be untrustworthy in negotiations, then they lose trust with you and others in the future. And you can respond accordingly in the future.

But there really isn't any need for either of you to complain or whine about the situation OOC yet. Just fight it out.

I'll bring the popcorn.

[Pitboss Portugal]

Ozzy I am not complaining or whinning, just want him to tell the true facts, not bend them. People are already buying into his org posts that he is the one trying to be good or whatever.

I will stop posting in the org threat 30days just to show you that the whinning isn't part of me.

[OzzyKP]

I'm not saying you are. Just saying to keep it in the story thread. So thank you.

[Pitboss Rome]

Originally posted by Pitboss Korea
Portugal should handle this diplomatically. I also think that the *way* you've reacted to them is very Roman by the way.

Could you elaborate on what you mean? In any case I'll take that as a compliment, I'm really trying to make all my decisions IC and I'm working hard to build a large land based empire, even if it comes down crashing in my face (that would give me a good dark age story )


My question in this thread was OCC since I was wondering if I've crossed any boundaries, you guys have to admit the whole concept of diplo is rather nebulous and someone not familiar with it could easily step over the line.

[Pitboss Rome]

Originally posted by Pitboss Portugal

He has fired at me the last couple of days demand after demand. The last 3-4 days I have been accepting them just to stop this war. But then he comes back and SAYS no to what he himself just offered and goes far asking a new one.

Guilty as charged. Sorry about that.

I'm more used to negotiating from a static position, I'm not really used to the concept that when I make a offer the the situation may change soo much by the next day that me keeping that option open would be quite disadvantageous.

Its much like what Lenin said about the face paced change of revolutions "a compromise acceptable on Tuesday is not acceptable on Thursday".

I'm not used to playing and negotiating in pitboss format. Its weird.

I'll try to look more in the long term when making proposals or I'll start putting deadlines in my offers.


I promise I will try to improve in this regard.

Maybe we I should start organizing live negotiations as a means of getting things done. You remember our live meet? We almost got a deal done then.

[Pitboss Rome]

Originally posted by Pitboss Portugal


Last but not least everyone following this maybe remember readying that Rome said I will attack you if you do not respond to me by 50BC. He had my answer before that year!! But he attacked anyway.

Maybe I didn't like your response? Or maybe I missed the message?

Originally posted by Pitboss Portugal


For the record I am the one pushing for peace that last couple of days not Rome. Of course now that he has what he wants he wants peace and makes it sounds lie I don’t

Originally posted by Pitboss Portugal


Rome I hope you aren't serious, just check how many pm's you have had from me in the last week

This is completley true. I am the aggressor. I never claimed otherwise, having said that I believe I have a good reason for war (to stop you from expanding on my subcontinent and to eliminate the city placed in my land).

The aggressor isn't necessarily the evil guy who the international community should instantly punish, heck I mean some people think the invasion of Iraq was justified.


You have been open to negotiation in the past, I never denied this, but you explicitly said that if I capture Outpost you will fight a total war against me. I last turn captured Outpost. Then I proposed a ingame deal to you, then I PMed you (some time later) the same deal.


I then assumed what you said (that you would fight a total war just to run me in the ground) was true and so posted and asked the community what one is to do in such cases.

[Pitboss Rome]

Originally posted by Pitboss Portugal
Portugal hasn't said one bad thing towards Rome for 3000 years.

Now, now we where at war once remember? Also you settled in my land.

[Pitboss Rome]

Originally posted by Pitboss Portugal
Portugal has never talked to Greece due to having no contact with them.

Rome you just don't know when to stop do you?

I never said this OCC and claimed it was true.

I did say this IC as my current leader is ever so slightly paranoid.

[Pitboss Rome]

Originally posted by Pitboss Portugal
Ozzy I am not complaining or whinning, just want him to tell the true facts, not bend them. People are already buying into his org posts that he is the one trying to be good or whatever.

I will stop posting in the org threat 30days just to show you that the whinning isn't part of me.

Again I never said I was the good guy.


I am however the right guy to support if you are a weak civ. Like the real Romans I try to bend every situation to my favor, help as much as possible my weaker allies and beat down anyone who is stronger.

That means that if I play this as the Romans did the powerfull civs of the world should hate me, and the weak ones adore me.


Also I didn't post to whine, I posted to figure out what to do if you should resort to total war.

[Pitboss Korea]

Originally posted by Pitboss Rome
Could you elaborate on what you mean? In any case I'll take that as a compliment, I'm really trying to make all my decisions IC and I'm working hard to build a large land based empire, even if it comes down crashing in my face (that would give me a good dark age story )


My question in this thread was OCC since I was wondering if I've crossed any boundaries, you guys have to admit the whole concept of diplo is rather nebulous and someone not familiar with it could easily step over the line.

Well the Romans were NOTORIOUS for their shifty dealings with other countries, especially Carthage. Their religion was heavily involved in their military, so the Romans always had to fight just wars. They would either make ridiculously skewed offers, or quickly ally with a tribe they knew their enemies would attack, et cetera (pun intended) just to get a war started. But they had to maintaing the air of victimhood, so they were always fighting a war in defense of Rome rather than wars of conquest. If they were fighting an unjust war they would not have support of the Gods (bribing an auger didn't hurt either). This was primarily during their Republican period but even during the Imperial period many wars that were purely of conquest (or to appease legions with plunder) were fought in the name of Roman safety. What is going on with you and Portugal is very similar. I don't know that it is intentional, but you are conducting very Roman foreign policy. You sir have Romanitas.

And I have to say this, after reading all of this ballyhoo over this whole situation. I'll say a couple of things;

@Portugal; What Rome is doing is in bad form, in the sense that they are clearly aggressing you, they are clearly trying to extend their empire under the guise that you have encroached on their land (again the Romans did this to the Celts in the Po valley, its practically the EXACT same thing actually). That said, this is perfectly acceptable, even encouraged, in a diplogame. Bringing it to light in the OOC thread like you are doing is REALLY BAD FORM in a diplogame. This smacks of deity in HOTW5 when he was being framed for terrorist attacks and he complained about it OOC. I didn't like that attitude then, and I don't like it now. You shouldn't do it because in the end he isn't doing anything wrong. You have to get allies and international opinion in your favor. Tell people, IC and through diplomatic negotiations, how the Romans deal with other countries, accept an unfair peace and prepare to avenge it. There are ways around this other than going to the OOC threads.

@Rome; its important you don't go too far, you never know if you may need Portugal later, and we certainly don't want players to quit the game, although if someone quits over this that is pretty bad sportsmanship.

I don't know, you don't have to follow everything I've said here, they are just things I believe Diplogames should be like.

[Pitboss Rome]

Originally posted by Pitboss Korea


Well the Romans were NOTORIOUS for their shifty dealings with other countries, especially Carthage. Their religion was heavily involved in their military, so the Romans always had to fight just wars. They would either make ridiculously skewed offers, or quickly ally with a tribe they knew their enemies would attack, et cetera (pun intended) just to get a war started. But they had to maintaing the air of victimhood, so they were always fighting a war in defense of Rome rather than wars of conquest. If they were fighting an unjust war they would not have support of the Gods (bribing an auger didn't hurt either). This was primarily during their Republican period but even during the Imperial period many wars that were purely of conquest (or to appease legions with plunder) were fought in the name of Roman safety. What is going on with you and Portugal is very similar. I don't know that it is intentional, but you are conducting very Roman foreign policy.

Originally posted by Pitboss Korea
You sir have Romanitas.

Like I said I'm big on role playing and I study my roles carefully. Nothing is left to chance...

[Pitboss Vikings]

ok my .02 c worth quickly.


I think everything i seen so far is within the bounds of Diplo games.

The war the failed negotiaitons everyting, even the blame game that has started is fun to watch ( not so fun now it swung my way ) So keep it up guys, post storys about it.

If you really want world opinion to swing, post some pics of the RAZED citys to prove it RAZED or post a pic to prove it not. That always sways me more, the truth, i never react to lies as some do. I react to pics of the inciodent.

Well played both of you.

I will be consideirng you both for DIPLO voted this month

But no militry points as using a UU to conquer citys is not worthy of Military votes, it just means you got a good unit that is hard t obeat. I hope others are not fooled into wasting Military votes for using a Preatorin versus Axemen and Archers.

Military votes are for the underdog gaining advantage. Survivng the attacks of large numbers agaisnt you. Teaming up with other player to defeat a stronger opponent, in this case you weakend any chance of military votes by getting the Piercians to join you.

Till other civs get stronger units thorugh research your Preatorians will be hard to beat. So enjoy the advantage you have while you have it.

[Pitboss Rome]

Hey fighting a war with prets against an all axeman army isn't that easy, also only half my army are praetorian's. Don't be fooled Portugal is no stupid AI.

Also tell me why would peaceful nations deserve more votes for military than nations that fight a war and use their UU? I'm not saying I deserve the votes more than my oponent but I sure as hell deserve them more than a nation just sitting there... Remember you have to give your military vote to 3 civs not one.

Also an alliance should get me diplo votes shouldn't it? And tell me when is the last time someone in a diplo game attacked a player so far ahead like Portugal is?

[Pitboss Rome]

Originally posted by Pitboss Vikings

Till other civs get stronger units thorugh research your Preatorians will be hard to beat. So enjoy the advantage you have while you have it.

You are right on that. But this is no different than what Greece is doing.

[Pitboss Vikings]

Being AI or human doesnt change the odds of combat does it ?

So basically if you get enough Praets to a city it will fall.

Not sure wehat defence he could use agaisnt that. Any other thoughts from anyone.

It only my opinion on who gets what votes of course. But using a UU is not Military strategy it jsut a good choice of civs or luck.

Military votes is for Military strategy used to me. So i want to see an outnumbered , out classes opeonent utilises strategy to win.

If the larger army is winning it not worth of votes.

i did say the storys you guys telling is showing DIPLO status voting .

Finally you are attacking a nation large in GAME score. They obviously didnt have a strong army and somehoe were just building wonders and reseraching techs and land aquisition to get the points, all things that i bleeive is good reason to not use the in game score as part of juding a winner.

Your nation is one of the largest armies and by time you add in Percia the two of you overwhelm the numbers of Portugese fighters. So in DIPLO history yes seen this many times where a larger army takes on a smaller one. in fact apart from Ozzy in many games, i rarely seen anyone do anything else in DIPLO games.

People usualy build a large army and use it agaisnt smaller ones.

A war betwen the three largest armys in this game wouold be a better sign.
Not sure who the top 3 are in army size. Maybe you and perica and Greece.

but this just my opinion not the opinion of the management,