Beyond the Pit [Pitboss Diplomacy Game] [Organization Thread]

[Pitboss Vikings]

I never said scouts can atttack, but to cross into cultural borders any unit except a spy must declare war first.

Declarations of war are not taken littley in DIPLO not arethey for simply exploring anothers land,

You should go back to your usual MP games where war is encouraged.

DIPLO is not about conquering each other certainly not in the BC era.

[Pitboss Vikings]

Originally posted by Toni
Yes I too am growing tired of the Vikings.

Had enough of his whinings!

Now he is black mailing the game, saying he will not play until we resolve this. What a joke!!!.

Talk about a team player HAHA. Where did this guy came from?

This is fine by me... Play well guys...

[Toni]

Korea and Maya i trust you two will find a solution. Fight it out in the story thread the Diplo way.

[Toni]

GREAT story POST Maya

That what diplo is all about!

[Pitboss Maya]

This is fine by me... Play well guys...

Does this mean we can go ahead and find a replacement?

[Pitboss Vikings]

Fine by me !

My civ is not password protected so anyone can log on and join ...

Cyber remove my pitboss vikings login...

[Pitboss Vikings]

jsut see if anyone will post stories as much as i do...

Total Posts: 95
User Posts
Pitboss Vikings 27
Pitboss Japan 16
Pitboss Persia 10
Pitboss Celts 5
OzzyKP 5
Pitboss Russia 4
Pitboss Maya 4
Pitboss Greece 4
Pitboss Rome 4
Pitboss Khmer 3
classical_hero 2
Pitboss Natives 2
CyberShy 2
LzPrst 2
Pitboss Korea 2
Pitboss Portugal 1
Pitboss America 1
Rasputin 1

[Pitboss Vikings]

Originally posted by Toni
Talk about a team player HAHA. Where did this guy came from?

One of the very early Diplo Players. Took over the smallest civ in an early DIPLO and played through to end regardless of never having a chance of winning , but enjoyed the interaction and social life created with this style of game.

So my whining has never been about being able to match it with the better players , but all about being able to enjoy the STYLE.

Unfortunatly this game has been opened to many people who do not understand the basic philosophy of DIPLO, there are plenty of non-diplo games for those players that are here just to prove how good they are.

DIPLO was not created for a ladder style game to see who is the best at Civ , it was created by a group of people to make it FUN for as many people as possible regardless of ability to play Civ together. The greatest fun was to come from the POstings , which as is obvious in this game has been forgetten by many, out of 18 players not all have posted and most are not posting regularly to create that DIPLO style.

The DIPLO style has been infiltrated by people who are only out to show how good they are at this game, and dont care what effect they have on others either through their game activiiteis nor their clashing in the forums.

[Pitboss Maya]

out of 18 players not all have posted and most are not posting regularly to create that DIPLO style.

I think the posts for the most part are following suit with the slower turn progression of pitboss.

Viking, you need to stay out of business that doesn't concern you. Why would you boycot the game over some issue that doesn't even involve you?

I understand you feel some people are exploiting the game, but you got to realize that war is very much a part of diplogames. Total annialation is discouraged, which puts me in sort of a bind with this whole Korea thing.

Korea won't budge on my terms because he knows there will be riots in the streets if I wipe him out. But at the same time I want something for leaving in peace.

The mantra "nations act as they would in real life" is often cited as the rule of thumb in diplogame war. Well, let me tell you, in 3000 BC if a tribe finds another tribe that doesn't speak their language, and looks drasticly different...

[Pitboss Vikings]

Where you are worng in this is that any disruption to any othe r civ is my concern.

As one of the very first people to join th ediplo group it concerns me deeply that somehow a civ could be forced out of the game without even building a 2nd city let alone building any sort of empire.

NO ONE should be declaring war at this stage of the game, you did so and moved a unit next to his city.

That is the most aggresive thing ever in a diplo game. Never in the rich history of DIPLO has anyone attacked anyone this early in the game.

CIV4 has cultural borders to prevent exaclty what occured here, that is that you should not have the right to walk through others territories, This world is big enough without having to interfer with other.

If this had been handled via the story thread before you declared war it could hav ebeen totally different.

For instance, when you found his civ you could have poisted a sotry about sitting outisde his sphere of influence and being concenred with these strange foiengers.

Then you could up the drama with some posts about your warriers feairng these strangers and therefore wanting to attack them.

Al lthis leads to a good DIPLO style game without declaring war for no reason.

[Pitboss Maya]

Where you are worng in this is that any disruption to any othe r civ is my concern.

I completely disagree with this. Civs should always be prepared for an attack, whether it comes from another player, or barbs. Disrupting a civ whose capital is close to mine, and may be a very good player is just smart stratagy. For the record however, I haven't done anything yet but cross boarders.

That is the most aggresive thing ever in a diplo game

No, what I will do next if Korea doesn't wise up will be worse.

For instance, when you found his civ you could have poisted a sotry about sitting outisde his sphere of influence and being concenred with these strange foiengers.

I have been lingering around his boarders for about 10 turns now. Dispite the way this has been painted, I didn't just show up out of the blue and double move to his capital. AGAIN, NOT THAT IT WOULD HAVE MADE A DIFFERENCE.

Then you could up the drama with some posts about your warriers feairng these strangers and therefore wanting to attack them.

My story posts explain the warlike nature of my people. This is sufficent warning in my opinion.

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by Pitboss Maya
Ok, fine. I just need to know if Korea is run by one of the "pros".

No, that'd be a violation of anonymous. You cannot demand or request that information.

Originally posted by Pitboss Maya
Please stop with the double move red herring. If you are half way to building your next defence unit then it really doesn't matter if i double moved or triple moved, or hopped in and out of your boarders several times before moving to your capital.

You are right that the double move issue has no bearing on this current situation. It didn't give you any tactical advantage, especially since you were just scouting him. Even so double moving IS against the rules of this game and was discussed at length and agreed to without objection in the organizing thread. The precise method of stopping double moves, as far as I can remember, wasn't agreed to but it is more important that people police themselves and try to play an honest game instead of play this game like a lawyer and argue rules the whole time. The spirit of the law is far more important than the letter in this game.

As for your earlier question about "which diplogame rules are we following?" The answer is all of them.

Originally posted by Pitboss Maya
You are approching this from the perspective that you have a choice. I lose nothing by wiping you out, except hearing Cyber and Ozzy yell at me. I am willing to work with you here.

We will do more than yell at you, we will throw you out of this game and revert your actions of wiping out the other civ. Under absolutely no circumstances are civs to be wiped out. Period. That doesn't make it carebear civ. War is welcomed and encouraged. Wiping people out or crippling them long term is not allowed.

You are right that complete annhilation occurs in the real world. But in diplogames it only happens when there is a vacant civ or if all the players agree to it. So no, your actions would not be allowed.

Originally posted by Pitboss Maya
Understood. But I am not going to let you recover only to get sucked into a lenghty war that I could stop now. Long term peace must be agreed to.

I, too, feel that long term peace is the best result here. But saying you "won't let him recover" is against the spirit of this game and against the rules. You must let him recover. No one can be permanently crippled in this game or eliminated.

However, despite the rhetoric the actual sequence of events so far don't seem all that bad. Maya declared war, "invaded" with a scout. Korea attacked with a warrior and lost.

Now everyone is fricken whining about it.

Get a grip people. One lost warrior is neither sufficient reason to call for a restart or threaten to quit the game over. I agree that it was poor form on Maya's part for declaring war without any notice or story post, but apparently they have now posted. So as long as Maya drops his rhetoric about wiping out Korea and not allowing him to recover, then there is ZERO reason this needs to be in the organization thread.

Take it to the story thread you damn pansies.

And Vikings, get a fricken grip. If they sell Prozac up there in Norway, take a handful. Let us work these things out you aren't helping. Don't quit. Just play on.

[LzPrst]

Oy veh. Can't be gone for more than a few hours without drama erupting. And not in the story thread.


Ozzy knows best. Or rather, he said what I was going to.


Here's one of the absolute keys to diplogaming: No wars without explanation. And preferably not without a few good threats or demands a bit in beforehand. Let this be sorted out in the story thread. Where it should have been to begin with.

Wiping out another player is unacceptable. This we have firmly established, I believe. And Vikings, you threatening to blackmail the game is a support of the clause mentioned, but this is not your decision to make alone. It is the community of players, with the host as final judge: Cyber. And I am 100% certain that Cyber agrees with Ozzy, and myself, for I have played diplogames with them for about... 2 years now?

So yes. Maya, wiping out another civ will get you booted from the game. This will be done by the host, not you Vikings. So everyone, behave, sort this out in the story thread. And read the diplo faq again.

And no. Rules do not change willy nilly during the game. We have however seen that some rules need adjusting for various reasons during a game, and if a consensus exists this is allowable. The diplo rules are not among the rules that need bending.

It's not about following every detail of the diplo faq to the letter, it's about the spirit of it. Playing this game requires you familiarize yourself with them, and adhere to them.

[Pitboss Japan]

all I have to say to the Mayans is remember what you have done. when someone dose the same to you I don’t want to hear and complains.

[Robert]

Vikings, please stay in the game. Your story contributions are fantastic.
Though you may try to keep the complaining a bit down.

Others please stop insulting the vikings, or complaining about them. You can't complain that someone complains too much.

Vikings have a point that we need to resolve this.
The double move of the Romans is a violation of the rules. Since nothing big happened I suggest we see it through the fingers.

It's impossible to decide if it was intentional or not. It doesn't matter either. To Corea I'd say: try to make a deal. If you dislike his proposal, make a counter proposal. I'm sure you guys can figure something out and earn some good diplomacy points

Further: I'm the host, please don't let me be the referee. A diplo game is played by adults. (not a matter of age, as Ozzy would say, but wisdom and good intentions ).

If that's not possible, then we need to create a referee-commission with 3 or 5 players. (we can vote on that)
Then problems like this will be decided by the referees. (majority vote)

Everybody must accept (in advance) every referee decision and promise to do so.

I dislike such a thing, but maybe we'd better create such a commission because with 18 players more difficulties will arrise in the future. After all we're all human.

But please, if troubles arrise, don't blackmail the game by treatening to stop or something.
I think that we should keep the game going in all cases. It's pitboss. Deal with that. You have limited time to solve things. It's as in real life. Time doesn't start ticking when you're in a fight.