Pitboss Diplomacy Game

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by CyberShy

That way we get semi-random starting positions, and he can't pick his own starting position.

I'm sorry but I don't see how this is any different?

This is just as random! He can't plan to get one site out of 8 no more than he could plan to get one site of 18. Just to make this clear I'm not saying he should place civs. He should place numbers & letters:

M1 for "mediteranean civ one"
HI1 for "hemisphere I civ 1"
C1 for "cool civ one"


Also I was responding to what Ozzy said, if in his opinion Korea, Japan and China would stick together then America and England should practically be one civ. I belive you Cyber but the truth is not everyone thinks that way.


The main reason I'm advocating this is to ensure the Financial trait is balanced between the continents. I mean imagine one of the two hemispheres got 5 or 6 Fin traits, together with the best players (quite a few of the veteran diploers seem to be fond of financial) who chose them. I'm sorry but we will have to make this semirandom instead of pure random, it would be just too game braking.

[LzPrst]

i agree 100% with cyber. NO cultural links whatsoever. random placement. as for locations and such, I have chosen one civ, but I want to rename it and give it a completely different history. I also want stories based on individual merits and innovations, not just reworkings of actual history. I have a certain idea in mind for the development of my civ, but I will be more than willing to adapt to whatever I get. and we should all have that philosophy.

come on people, I want to see some creative writing here!

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by LzPrst
i agree 100% with cyber. NO cultural links whatsoever. random placement. as for locations and such, I have chosen one civ, but I want to rename it and give it a completely different history. I also want stories based on individual merits and innovations, not just reworkings of actual history. I have a certain idea in mind for the development of my civ, but I will be more than willing to adapt to whatever I get. and we should all have that philosophy.

come on people, I want to see some creative writing here!

Again how is having Korea and Rome together produce cultural links?

And how do you deal with unbalancing the game in what you propose?


I have a creepy feeling people are just skipping my posts or have me on ignore.

[LzPrst]

let us try a totally random distribution. if you really feel it necessary, put 3 financials in one hemisphere and 3 in the other. that is a possibility, but the law of randomness pretty much precludes that 5 or 6 of the FIN civs will end up in the same continent.

another detail. look at the oriental civs. china, mongolia, japan, korea, ALL of these are either Aggressive or Protective, or in one case, both. that would be a bit boring to have most of those civ traits clustered in one area. randomness!

[LzPrst]

ok hera, heres my thoughts.

Maybe I dont want to be on continent A.
Maybe I dont want to know aforehand who might be my neighbours.
Maybe I dont want my rivals to know that I'll be near them.
Maybe I dont want to know how many rivals I have.

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by LzPrst
but the law of randomness pretty much precludes that 5 or 6 of the FIN civs will end up in the same continent.

How good are you at math or statistics? Well suffice it to say I can prove thats its very very far from being impossible or even unlikley.


And if we are unlucky enought to hit that we would have a broken game on which we will have wasted several months of play.

Originally posted by LzPrst

another detail. look at the oriental civs. china, mongolia, japan, korea, ALL of these are either Aggressive or Protective, or in one case, both. that would be a bit boring to have most of those civ traits clustered in one area. randomness!

You don't know who your neigbours will be, you only know which civs you'll see on which continent. Since there are so many of us each continent will have about as many civs as HOTW12! And P can if he wants mix up my lists a bit but preserve the balance of Fin civs. My plan dosen't let you know which civ you'll be next to! He can mix up Cx's and the Mx's any way he wants, Its just a way to allow for randomness despite what he wants to do with varied climates.


Lastly you have seen the list right? There are two asian civs, and the other civs are quite diverse, I actually tried to make the lists diverse. In any case what I did was just a smaple P can change the lists, that way only he would know what kind of a key he would use to ensure the semirandomness he wants.

[LzPrst]

I was trying to make a point. about cultural groupings being bad. and also that geographical starts based on real life starts are not necessarily ideal. and finally, I prefer to be unaware of as much as possible so that things come as a surprise to me in as large an extent as is possible. thats all.

if you can make it work, I'm fine with it. but I'd prefer to know as little as possible. and I'd also like to ask that I'm not given a start based on my civs historical start.

[Vampgelus]

Originally posted by LzPrst
I'd also like to ask that I'm not given a start based on my civs historical start.

You won't. You will get start location number "? ". Depending on how lucky you are, the number you will get will give you a start that you like more or less.

The "rules" Hera is trying to point out are only about the general feeling of the part of the continent you will be putten in. Imagine RL Europe for instance. If you are a european civ, you may get a start like RL Spain, or like RL England. The only thing you would know is that you would not get a start like RL Egypt.

As for the neighbours, you would only know that Persia will probably be a little closer then Japan. You would not know before discovering them who your closest neighbours will be. Could be Greece, could be Rome, could be France, etc...

[Pinchak]

I recommend using the SmartMap script.

Interesting idea, but frankly, if we are going to let AI mangle my creation then I would just as well save myself the time and effort and suggest a totally script made map.

I have read the posts as of late and there seems to be strong feelings from several players on how starting locations should be handled.

Unfortunately many of the suggestions are mutually exclusive.

For simplicity sake, I would suggest the following...

Random starting locations are divided into two catagorys, being "cool" and "hot". Cool would include grassland, plains, tundra, and ice with forests being the predominate flora, whereas hot would include desert, grasslands, and plains with jungle being the predominate flora.

This is to avoid Mali winding up next to a tundra area (notice I said "next to" not "in"), or Vikings in/next to a jungle. Now I realize we are not trying to mimic earth, but I would guess that MOST players would want a climate start at least somewhat close to the historic (I for one would).

I also would propose no attempt be made to culture linking civs. It really doesn't make sense anyway due to the distrubution (many europe civs, few orient/africa/new world).

As long as everyone else is ok with it, I also would not be opposed to making an "island" pool where the civ would start on a galley linked island (japan/england). This however might pose an advantage since any invading army would then have to ship its units across. It is really your guys call regarding island starts.

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by Vampgelus


You won't. You will get start location number "? ". Depending on how lucky you are, the number you will get will give you a start that you like more or less.

The "rules" Hera is trying to point out are only about the general feeling of the part of the continent you will be putten in. Imagine RL Europe for instance. If you are a european civ, you may get a start like RL Spain, or like RL England. The only thing you would know is that you would not get a start like RL Egypt.

As for the neighbours, you would only know that Persia will probably be a little closer then Japan. You would not know before discovering them who your closest neighbours will be. Could be Greece, could be Rome, could be France, etc...

I take it you support my latest proposal?

[Heraclitus]

To be honest I don't like hot & cold, but if you can get the nay sayers to accept it, I would comply for the sake of the game.


The main problem is that there are many more "cool" civs than "hot" ones.

[Pinchak]

The only thing you would know is that you would not get a start like RL Egypt.

I agree with this. I disagree with the last paragraph. It should be impossiable to determine the location (or distance) of any other civ from yours.


I would also like to comment that I think people are putting too much emphisis on how the civ traits are distrubuted. I agree with cyber in the respect that randomness should take care of this more or less. Even if they do happen to get clumped, I don't see it as "game breaking" at all.

Close by civs COULD team up... or they could war with each other. In addition, the civ traits are a small peice of the puzzle IMO.

[Pinchak]

The main problem is that there are many more "cool" civs than "hot" ones.

Then the "cool" area will have to be made bigger then "hot" areas... which actually sort of mimics earth (again, not that we are trying to recreate earth here).

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by Pinchak


Then the "cool" area will have to be made bigger then "hot" areas... which actually sort of mimics earth (again, not that we are trying to recreate earth here).

Yes but who gets to decide if a civ is cool or hot?

[Heraclitus]

I don't want to play on a cold world.

I just want something normal.