History of the World 8 - Organisation Thread (Pt2)

[Robert]

Originally posted by KunojiLym
Nani? Eigo wakarimasen. Nihongo wa? >_>

I'll ask my Japanese speaking co-worker what that means.

(he's german, but lives in the Netherlands and has a Japanese wife after he lived in Japan for many years, that's why)

[OzzyKP]

USA! USA! USA!





It is pretty remarkable though I think. When in history can you recall another nation doing so much to save people from invasion and rebuilding them and not asking anything for themselves?

The 20th century was one of the bloodiest in human history. Think of how much worse it would have been without the United States. And yet, everyone hates us now.

I mean I don't at all support the war in Iraq, but no one besides the most deluded leftist believes the US is really going to just conquer Iraq and make it part of a US empire. For all our horrible mistakes, from the beginning our goal was to take the country and then leave them a better place.

Think of other nations that have had as much power relative to the world as the US does now. Rome, Mongolia, Great Britain, etc. They just all conquered countries. The US has just used its power to help. Horribly misguided at times, but ****, we are probably alone using our vast military power for the good of mankind over the last century. Never taking territory, often never even getting paid back (Marshall plan, etc). That is a pretty damn impressive track record I think.

[Robert]

I agree.
The European hate towards the USA is pathatic, and I keep telling that to everybody, but every day fewer people listen

I still support the invasion of Iraq btw. I think that mistakes have been made, but the invasion itself was justified. And the troubles that came are to blame on France, Russia, China and Germany as well, since these nations gave a justification to the terrorists to fight against the Americans, not to mention that a joint approach would have certainly helped Iraq much better as well.

But it's true, Russia, Germany, France and China only served their own goals, and they are praised for that. Not to mention that people like Chiraq and Schroder even used the war for personal success and popularity.

Go USA
But hey, Holland at least supported the Americans, and we still do till today!

[Toni]

It is pretty remarkable though I think. When in history can you recall another nation doing so much to save people from invasion and rebuilding them and not asking anything for themselves?

I really enjoyed reading that part

WW2 US helped indeed, but the Russians are the one who did the heavy lifting then. Its sad how western biased history books do not give them the so much deserved credit!

[Robert]

The Russians did 'the heavy lifting'?????
That's why eastern europe needed a total modernisation after it broke free from Russia and communism.

Of course, Russia did good stuff for eastern europe in the beginning, but made the states more and more pure vassal states that weren't free to move. What Russia did for the eastern european nations can clearly not be described as being unselfish.

Not to mention the cruel deeds of the russian soldiers in those nations, raping and stealing their 'deserved loan'.

[Toni]

CS you rushed with unnessecarry conclusions, i was talking about the WW2 not period after that, if it wasn't for the russians u will be speaking german right now!

[Toni]

Man u really need to read some history books,

That's why eastern europe needed a total modernisation after it broke free from Russia and communism.

If the western countries including US and what was left from England plus France had some balls many of the eastern european countries would have not suffer, instead the whole eastern part of the continent was left to the red army and 50 years of decay and lunatical ideology!

[Robert]

CS you rushed with unnessecarry conclusions, i was talking about the WW2 not period after that

Ozzy was talking about the period after it as well. That's why I said that. The Marshall plan was a huge unselfish plan. Ok, not totally unselfish, in the end a strong european economy is good for the USA, but helping Europe was the #1 reason.

if it wasn't for the russians u will be speaking german right now!

As a matter of fact I am speaking some kind of German, since Dutch and German are very alike
And no, thanks to all allies I'm not speaking (real) German. It was the combination of America, Canada, England and Russia that freed us from the Nazi's. And America did the dirty work at our side of the continent, and indeed, it helped a lot that Russia was fighting them at the other side.

If the western countries including US and what was left from England plus France had some balls many of the eastern european countries would have not suffer, instead the whole eastern part of the continent was left to the red army and 50 years of decay and lunatical ideology!

With 'some balls' you mean start a nuclear holocaust by invading and liberating the eastern european countries? WOW!

So you blame the USA in fact for not liberating eastern europe, while others blame the USA for liberating Iraq and Afghanistan. What do the USA exactly have to do? Liberate nations or not liberate nations?

[Toni]

The so called great leaders of the west Roosevelt and Churchill sold half of Europe to Stalin at Yalta, from the deal of course they gained that was their goal, but the price was to be paid by so many smaller countries, pretty sad.

[Toni]

Oh lol. i'm not trying to say anything vs the US, my main point here is that very little credit was given if any to the russians during the WW2. I started the whole thing to make the point that russia was the main power to help europe during the war, US had a major roll but nothing close to what the russian did during those horrible six years.

[Beta]

The Russians did do the heavy lifting during WW2. Even into 1944 and 1945, roughly 80% of the German army was on the eastern front. Combat losses also confirm this fact.

And keep in mind that during the 1941 to June 1944 period, other than a side show in Africa and Italy, and the air bombing campaign which did have a significant effect - the war in Europe was the war on the eastern front.

[Beta]

Cyber - the times look good. But then again - it is in effect the same time for me.

Originally posted by dacole...

From looking at your list, the router itself might be the issue. A router is a hardware firewall (as opposed to a software firewall) and if it is not configued right will give you all sort of connectivity issues.

My suggestion would be next time you try to play, connect directly from your DSL box to your comp without the router. If the "router" you are refering to is actually your DSL modem, then I would recommend looking into configuration options for it.

I would say 90% chance if you are using a router in addition to your DSL modem, that is the problem.

Sorry - my bad. I do NOT have a router. I am always mixing up the terminology. I simply have the DSL box running directly to the PC.

So yep - I will check the configuration options as suggested, with the list posted earler.

Thanks for the feedback.

[Beta]

(Found this with a quick google search. A related discussion indicates that recent Russian info reveals that the Russians in fact reported lower losses than really occurred. Russian civilian losses were closer to 50 million.)

Over 60 million people died in WWII and of those 60 million, more were civilian than soldiers." Pages 363 and 364 give a run down with some numbers but does not offer a breakdown of the total civilian vs. soldier. (From WW2 for Dummies.)

The Soviet Union lost the most with 25 million deaths, but only about a third were combat related.

China's death toll is incomplete but estimates are between 15 and 22 million.

Poland had 6 million deaths including 3 million Jews, roughly 20% of its prewar population.

Germany lost 4 million soldiers and 2 million civilians, many of them women.

Japan had 1.2 million battle deaths and another 1.4 million soldiers listed as missing, almost 1 million civilians were killed in the bombing raids between 1944 and 1945.

Over 1.7 million Yugoslavs and 500,000 Greeks died in the war.

France lost 200,000 soldiers and 400,000 civilians.

Italy lost 330,000 people.

Hungary lost 147,000 men in combat.

Bulgaria lost 19,000 in combat.

Romania lost 73,000 in combat.

Great Britain lost 264,000 soldiers and 60,000 civilians in bombing raids.

The United States lost 292,000 soldiers.

The Dutch lost 10,000 soldiers and 190,000 civilians.

Australia lost 23,000 men in combat.

Canada lost 37,000 soldiers.

India lost 24,000 men in battle.

New Zeland lost 10,000.

South Africa lost 6,000.

These totals do not include the 6 million Jews who perished in the Final Solution of Nazi Germany or the 17 million dead as a result of Japan's policies in Asia from 1931 to 1945.

Beta here again - so the comparative figure would be 8 million combat KIA for Russia vs 292,000 for the US.

[Toni]

Some interesting facts as well, this will be my last input for the current topic then back to HOTW8

Just to show what role this the russian played in the european theater

Battles are ranked by a combination of Importance in the outcome of World War II, Amount of Men and Materials committed to the Battle, Intensity of Fighting and Casualties and Losses incurred in Men and Materials.

1.) Battle of Kursk – July 5, 1943 to July 13, 1943 – Germany launches its 3rd Summer Offensive against the Russians and its last. The largest Tank Battle ever fought in History. German aim to capture 66 Soviet Divisions fails as the Battle becomes a battle of attrition. Germany accepts a tactical draw and withdraws. Germany lost 100,000 killed/wounded/captured and Soviet Union lost 250,000 killed and 600,000 wounded and the destruction of 50% of their tanks.

2.) Battle of Prussia – June 22, 1944 to August 16, 1944 – Soviet Union launches the greatest offensive in human history. Its aim is to destroy 100 German Divisions guarding Prussia and Poland. Hitler does not give the order for the Massive German Army Center to withdraw and the Army is totally destroyed. Germany lost 800,000 killed/wounded/captured and Soviet Union lost 1,300,000 killed and wounded. This was the greatest disaster to befall on the German Army in World War II.

3.) Battle of Stalingrad – August 23, 1942 to February 2, 1943 –The Bloodiest battle ever fought in history and the greatest urban battle ever fought. The biggest defeat on the German Army since the war began. Germany lost 300,000 killed/wounded/captured and Soviet Union lost 1,200,000 killed.

4.) Battle of Vistula – January 12, 1945 to March 30, 1945 – The Soviets launch the Biggest offensive of World War II even bigger than their Summer offensive 6 months ago. The German Army guarding the Vistula River is totally destroyed and a massive German army retreats to the final defenses around Berlin. Germany lost 500,000 killed/wounded/captured and Soviet Union lost 600,000 killed and wounded.

5.) Battle of Berlin – April 16, 1945 to May 7, 1945 – The 2nd most fierce urban warfare battle. Germany lost 200,000 killed and over 200,000 civilians killed and Soviet Union lost 600,000 men killed and wounded.

[Beta]

Here is another good chart - better a link than try to repost it here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

It shows 10,700,000 Soviet military deaths, to 407,000 US.

Also of significance is the percentage of population as a loss, although that includes civilian deaths as well.

The Soviet Union lost 13.77% of its population, through both military and civilian deaths; the US 0.32%.

For comparison purposes, Canada, which also had minimal civilian losses, lost 0.40% of its population. I know for a fact that 25% of the Canadian losses were from bomber command. I suspect the US air losses were a similar proportion.

Australia was even higher, at 0.58%. And Great Britain at 0.94% but that includes roughly 68,000 civilains killed by bombing.

So, I don't mean to belittle the US involvement. It was key to ending the war. And the prouduction and financial support was very critical. And in absolute terms, US losses were indeed significant. But it is pretty clear why the Russians see the war, the Great Patriotic War, as the incredible nation-defining moment, and tragedy, that it was.