The HOTW VII - Setup Thread IV - We Talk Too Much

[Robert]

1. I think if 2 civs have a tech trade pact and one of these civs becomes AI for one session, the other civ can tech-trade with the AI. (ie. if Egypt will turn AI one session then India and Egypt can still trade techs since that's what would happen normally as well)

We can even use temp-subs (ie. I login as civ x) to enforce these trades. We may also lower the attitude that several AI's have for each other have this way to prevent them to trade techs among each other.

2. I don't think that TORaCTT benefits the top players. No tech trading or open tech trading wouldn't have changed the current situation. I think the current situation is even better, there are differences in advancements, we're not all equal. I think it's no problem that not everybody is equally strong or advanced, that perfectly reflects real life.

Open tech trade would have resulted in an even more advanced position for the top civs, I think. Right now I am always sure that I can trade with my allies. If Arabia/Bulgaria would have been allowed to trade with me then I think that only a very few techs would have gone to the Egyptians and all techs that I researched early (ie. Theology) would have reached the Bulgarians/Arabians much earlier.

Conclusion: eventhough the current game is not 'ballanced' (as in equal civs) I think it's more/better ballanced then with not TORaCTT at all.

3. Aussie_Lurker is busy creating a TORaCTT mod for us! That will make things much easier! We may even request a "NO AI-AI trade mod" as well.

4. I don't like the idea of charity in the game. That is: OOC charity. I am happy to receive a Choson Galleon, the Choson prefer it that the Indians reach the new World before the Bulgarians/Arabians, that's why they help us. I would hate it to receive stuff just for the sake of catching up. I'm trying to get the best out of my stinky starting position. I try to do that without OOC help.

An in-game unequal alliance (as India/America in HOTW5) may have good In-Character reasons. It's always good for a big nation to have a smaller puppet somewhere, but please no gifts just for pitty sake.

[OzzyKP]

Let me first of all clarify a misconception that seems to be rather popular. Bulgaria and I did not look around the player list see that we were number 1 and number 2 and decide to form the most powerful alliance. No. We allied very early on in the game, like turn 20, before either of us were anything really.

It was from our alliance that we became top in the game. Not the other way around.

For much of the game Bulgaria was low in score, in the middle of the pack. So we lifted each other's boats because of our alliance.

If India/China/Egypt allied early on in the game and because of that became very powerful, advanced players would we now be saying they are being dishonest by gathering together all the best players into one alliance?


And I definitely sympathize with Deity. His two initial tech partners, Frank & Lz, haven't really worked out well. Though of course on the topic of unequal alliances, all three of them had the top three GNPs in the world, so Deity was hoping to outstrip the rest of the world in tech and is now only sour that someone else's alliance did it instead.

But yes, this game has been disrupted by people dropping and subs and replacement players and AI. All diplogames have that though, so it should be expected and all stable players should be flexible enough to adapt. For instance, Bulgaria-Arabia only picked up our third tech trade partner half way through the game when Mike took over England. Mike was surprized when we contacted him because he figured everyone had formed 3-way alliances already and he, as a new player, would be left out in the cold.

Deity, or anyone really, could have absolutely gotten to Mike first and established a firm tech trade agreement with him. But we beat you to it. We didn't do anything unfair, you just got beat, and that's part of the game.

As for the Inca, when it was looking like we were going to be attacked from all sides by some massive world alliance we were looking for friends in whatever capacity and location we could. We were fortunate to gain the friendship of Levi in those dark times and it paid off exceptionally well.

As for Bulgaria's promises to ally with the western powers, obviously now that was just a delaying tactic to avoid a world war while he built up his army a bit more. So yea, he played you guys like a fiddle, and that is definitely part of this game.

The accusation came in HOTWV that Russia-India's alliance was too strong and no matter how circumstances changed we were always locked together. Then as in now there are always doubts and mistrust can brew from back channel diplomacy. For instance India kept telling me that Bulgaria was planning to attack me. I didn't believe him, but I did tell him (and mean it) that if Bulgaria attacked me then I would ally with India and help India gain territory in Bulgaria.

Now I trusted Toni, and continue to trust him, and it paid off. But obviously I had enough doubts to make a back up plan. And again, that is all part of diplogaming. Layers upon layers of diplomacy and negotiations.

So again, since this came up in the last game, if people are harboring notions that I'm an unfair player because I keep finding myself in these powerful alliances I'll let you in on a secret. I am a very loyal alliance partner. Kuno knows this from last game and Toni knows now. I do what I can to help my friends, and because of that I am helped, and thus we both grow strong. There is nothing improper about that.

(plus I build a lot of wonders which inflates my score, so don't base everything off of game score)

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by CyberShy
1. I think if 2 civs have a tech trade pact and one of these civs becomes AI for one session, the other civ can tech-trade with the AI. (ie. if Egypt will turn AI one session then India and Egypt can still trade techs since that's what would happen normally as well)

We can even use temp-subs (ie. I login as civ x) to enforce these trades. We may also lower the attitude that several AI's have for each other have this way to prevent them to trade techs among each other.

I'd be inclined to agree with this.

Originally posted by CyberShy
2. I don't think that TORaCTT benefits the top players. No tech trading or open tech trading wouldn't have changed the current situation. I think the current situation is even better, there are differences in advancements, we're not all equal. I think it's no problem that not everybody is equally strong or advanced, that perfectly reflects real life.

Open tech trade would have resulted in an even more advanced position for the top civs, I think. Right now I am always sure that I can trade with my allies. If Arabia/Bulgaria would have been allowed to trade with me then I think that only a very few techs would have gone to the Egyptians and all techs that I researched early (ie. Theology) would have reached the Bulgarians/Arabians much earlier.

Conclusion: eventhough the current game is not 'ballanced' (as in equal civs) I think it's more/better ballanced then with not TORaCTT at all.

I agree. The rule may need some tweaking (and with a good mod, hopefully we'll be able to), but I don't think its broken.

Originally posted by CyberShy
3. Aussie_Lurker is busy creating a TORaCTT mod for us! That will make things much easier! We may even request a "NO AI-AI trade mod" as well.

Originally posted by CyberShy
4. I don't like the idea of charity in the game. That is: OOC charity. I am happy to receive a Choson Galleon, the Choson prefer it that the Indians reach the new World before the Bulgarians/Arabians, that's why they help us. I would hate it to receive stuff just for the sake of catching up. I'm trying to get the best out of my stinky starting position. I try to do that without OOC help.

An in-game unequal alliance (as India/America in HOTW5) may have good In-Character reasons. It's always good for a big nation to have a smaller puppet somewhere, but please no gifts just for pitty sake.

I think some pity gifts are ok. One of the stated objectives of diplogames is to keep everyone in the game, competitive and interested throughout the game. So if it takes a bit of catching up to make that happen, then I'm all for it. And as I've noted I've done a little bit of that thus far. I don't think it should be excessive though, nor do I think we should necessarily break our stated rules to make it happen.

I think Ryk is the worst off in the game, and his situation needs to be discussed foremost. His one ally is perpetually absent and he is stuck with just 4 cities on a small patch of land. I'd be open to him taking over for the Celts, who are in a much better position, or conquering the Celtic AI. Or we can all chip in to contribute a settler to Ryk to rebuild in the New World.

I'd also be open to buying Ryk a plane ticket to Norway so he can kick Lz's ass for missing the last few weeks.

[OzzyKP]

also aare we playing this week?

It is Thanksgiving here in the United States, and I know we have a good number of Americans in the game who may be traveling on Friday. I'll be around here and able to play if we do, but I'd recommend taking the week off.

[LzPrst]

yes! I will be playing. I was totally ready to play last friday, even bougth the CD and patched, but a friend of mine came to town and we had a few beers and I was having fun. contrasting the week before when I was pissed off and depressed and couldnt play cause I couldnt think, let alone sit still, I decided to ditch you.

I thought I text messaged cyber that I wasnt coming.

long story short. I needed a break. I will be there next friday.

I'm sorry for ditching you. but it wasnt planned. I'll try to make up for it. my track record previously for this game is fairly clean, so I hope you'll forgive my two failings.

[Toni]

Lz welcome back and please please stay for a while Your friends and allies need you there. And i forgive you

Me live in the US but diplo is the only holiday for me, SO ME RDY TO PLAY THIS FRIDAY 100%' I think Levi and Nolan have no problem with that too.

[Robert]

Ozzy: I hope you didn't understood from me that I disliked how you allied with Bulgaria? I totally agree with your post (and I think I have said so in the game)
I also like the way Bulgaria faked his western wannabe-alliance and how you dealth with my messages. I like that because it's all well done-diplo wise. You are right that you have done right to the letter all the time.

Except for the thing I PMed you about :P
But that's no OOC-fault, it's something in game as well and it must be dealt with in-game.

Conclusion: I agree with you that this is a fair game, apart from the fact that we're having a lot of dropouts
Must be said though that India/Egypt/China have allied from very early in the game. We just couldn't benefit from each other as good as you and Bulgaria since we didn't got much room/resources to expand to. Well, we did, but Bulgaria took 70% of it ;-)
Which is once again a part of the game!

I can play friday, I'm fine if the Americans want to skip one week as well.

[OzzyKP]

Don't worry I know you aren't the one whingering.

As for the PM, I'll get you a response eventually, don't think I'm ignoring you.

[deity]

Hey I'm not whinging either ozzy. I thought it was useful to comment on the state of play - we obviously have some problems. I did not say or mean to imply you did anything wrong. Did I? Correct me pls...

But I can't understand why you don't think TORaCTT is broken?

1) AI civs are probably free trading techs which are inherited by the eventually returning human player = rule broken whether you like it or not.
2) Other humans can not trade with AI civs and with so many AI's it way restricts trading = rule broken.
3) If humans do return to take over the AI and then other players trade with them then it's possible that they will pick up techs that were traded previously BETWEEN the AI - not to mention that the AI hasn't kept count of the number of times a terch has been traded. This situation advantages the Choson for example.

--

None the less I agree that we just perservere and don't introduce new rules and returning humans just make their best judgement on what they can trade.

[deity]

Also, let's please continue this week!

[Toni]

We are playing this Friday

[Robert]

This is a new all-time low point in my english writing:

CyberShy: ... and how you dealth with my messages ...

Hey, I'm trying

[OzzyKP]

I'm patched!!!!!!!

2.08

[Robert]

Originally posted by OzzyKP
I'm patched!!!!!!!

2.08

My solution worked?
Or did you use someone else his solution? *yealous*

[OzzyKP]

Toni honored the terms of our historic tech trade agreement and helped me through the crisis. Thanks anyways CS!