Largest Barbarian City?

[unamablebuiler]

i did see not one but 4 size 17 barb cities in a clump in earth acnient start they had maces and rifles noe one could even land on north america for a long time

[CarnalCanaan]

You think size 11's awesome? In one of my terra map games a barbarian city built the Hanging Gardens!

[Smellycowsquid]

I saw a fully developed Barb city with just expanded borders, it surprised me, took a few units to get the Barb troops out.

[Addled Platypus]

I take it you cant trade with them

[Paddy]

hehe trade with a Barb city would be fun

[Qwertqwert]

On a Terra map when I went to the new world in 1 game there were 1 size 13, 1 size 12, and 2 size 10s. All the other cities were 9 or less. But that was still a hell of a force to fight off. Though in the end I basically owned the whole new world.

[Seraphix]

In Marathon Mode I've seen a 15, but it was in 1914, when I already was building my spaceship.
Before that inn 1560:
I was fighting Napoleon and Paris had 6 Longbowmans
I conquered it, and after that when I saw my first Barabaryan cuty (about 1600) they had fire weapons .
What about that. A barbaryan cuty more developed then Paris
Bug? Ciao! SeraphiX was here
Waitin' for Civ. V!

[Generaldoktor]

I seem to like dropping in the barb threads, I guess I'm becoming something of an expert. Maybe because frequently I play "raging" on huge Highlands maps where the mountain chains, forests and associated fog really spawns them. A good way to learn to get on top of barbs is playing this way. Some games I fight barbs for most of the game because, even with up to seven AI opponents, nobody can get to me through the barbs. This sounds boring, but is really a lot like the old Space Invaders; a lot of your research and wonder-building is on hold or skillfully mingled in while you focus on military to hold off hordes every turn. Barbs don't do cease-fire! They attack AI too, so as long as I play at Noble, which I prefer, I don't get behind in tech. It's actually an incentive to develop a good military tech you can use to intimidate AI later.

Saw most of the comments on this one were from last fall after game release, but somebody did comment about a week ago. So here's my two cents.

1. Barbs appear to use goody huts as "spawn" for cities. This takes awhile. If you roam around you will see barb garrisons just sitting on goody huts. They have generally been there a long time, are sometimes axemen and are not that easy to dislodge. If you "file away" that reconnaissance till later and come back, you might very well find a barb city of some size. No more goodies, but you can sack the cities or keep them; they yield pillage either way. Bring city raiders and cats just like normal or you may be very disappointed. See 4) below. I have never seen barb "settlers." It is possible they have other ways to spawn cities, but I suspect the untouched for millennia goody hut is the primary if not sole spawn tool. Want less barbs? Find those goody huts, all of them!

2. The biggest barb city I have seen was an "8", but this was on a generated map. From the comments here and elsewhere, it is apparent that some large barb cities are programmed into the "realistic" Terra map, possibly from conception and mainly in the New World. Remember, there were other native American civs besides Incas and Aztecs, (Toltecs, Anazazi, etc.) These might be represented by the barb cities and if left alone long enough, do freaky things like develop gunpowder.

3. Barbs get culture, build city walls and mine minerals. No, you cannot trade with them! Unlike AI, they are programmed to be nihilists and kill or be killed, always and forever. Barbs will sometimes, if left alone enough, build several cities near each other with connecting cultural boundaries, in essence, a barb empire! They do not develop leaderheads and you can't negotiate with them either. Capture the city, take the plunder ; they are frequently near strategic locations or good resources, but it is a dangerous temptation to take over too many as you can overexpand and bust your budget through the excess maintenance. Their cities do resist for numerous turns, depending on age and size and take a long time to develop, just like any captured city. Take the pillage and raze them if you can't afford them or they don't have anything you need.

4. Some crazy on another thread suggested leaving them up so you can "train" units by getting XP periodically knocking their garrisons partway down. This is dangerous. If you get distracted, they can build back up, pillage your improvements and attack your cities! They generally spawn new units in about ten turns or so, don't know if they build forges/factories or this is arbitrary. They will send all but 2 or 3 to targets either in your empire or AI, but the "garrison" generally accumulates a lot of entrenchment bonus after they are left alone a while and can get promotions too. (I'm pretty sure barbs build "barracks" as I have seen city defender promotions and don't know otherwise where they would come from; they get more if you unsuccessfully attack them.} As stated, they also build city walls and with all this can be a real bear to dislodge without proper forces.

5. Combating the hordes of "raging barbs" is a two-step process in Civ4. First, when still weak, set up switchpoints just outside your cultural boundaries on favorable terrain; I like forested hills, though once I get forts this is a rare case where I might build that largely useless improvement; on a hill with no resources. The barbs are dumb and will attack nearby units usually. I'm not totally sure on their logic, sometimes they will move to bypass. This, plus "heal" time is why you use multiple units at the switchpoints, 2-3 archers and and add at least one axeman when you can. If you're getting a lot of traffic, 3 archers and 2 axe are not unheard of and will allow your civ to then develop unmolested if you put the switchpoints right. This is in addition to city garrisons. Escorting heavily, settlers moving beyond your "green zone" is a given.

If you think this is too much production, consider the effect of having periodic pillage and regular bloodying (beyond XP) of a smaller military. Game maps with open spaces may require less though, due to less "traffic" and also sometimes a dumbly, closely placed AI can act as a "buffer" for you.

This is only a stopgap, particularly in games with "raging barbs." Eventually, you want to form "hunter-killer" groups, primarily sword-axe and horse, if you have 'em; but an archer thrown in for defense, especially while "healing" is a good thing too. Go after the barbs, especially their cities, whether you want to keep them, or not. They will spawn anyway, spontaneously, anywhere its "fog of war," but spawn faster and with more sophisticated units out of their cities. Burn, baby, Burn!

[ElConejo]

Thanks a million Generaldoktor, that is helpful. One thing I *love* about barbs is that they DO go up the tech tree as the rest of the nations. I like this because in the latter games they can act as 'rebels' and military city-states in far off places. Its a good move as far as the barbs go and I am even more glad they now have cities! For the taking with no political or diplomatic consequences!

[Generaldoktor]

There have been some changes since I wrote that in April. Both Patch v.161 and the "Warlords" expansion has tended to make Barbs smarter. They now routinely bypass strongpoints outside the culture boundary and head for cities or related improvements.

My new solution is to form concentric rings of archers and dig them in; barracks are desirable before production, to give the archers relevant promotions. Hunter-killer packs now start operations within the actual cultural boundary, once constructed. I start with one, then two archers in the city. When I get another, for that city "district," I put him on the most key resource. Workers then come and develop the resource. Developing resources before you can defend them is a waste of time, especially on "raging," the barbs will just make you do it again, over and over, because you have to cover the cities as a priority and until you have a half dozen archers or more, preferably with promotions, you can't cover it all. Archers will get hit and have to "heal" too. Remember, even without barracks, healing is quicker in the city. Edit: Don't worry about roads, barbs either use them or ignore them, just cover the resources (and the cities, of course; barbs are now more prone to razing; you probably won't get a city back you lose to them.)

Once the critical early game resources are covered, defensively; (barbs are primarily an early game problem, they disappear as "fog of war" is unveiled and settled, by all players; ) it is time to make the hunter-killer packs. As stated, these must now start closer to home, because the barbs no longer automatically gravitate to them if they are sitting on a remote hill. Lots of axemen are best. (Even though chariots are now the enemy's antidote to axemen, I've never seen barb chariots, for some reason.) An archer to defend, if the stack gets too far from the city and needs to "heal," isn't bad. Include multiple axemen for the same reason; you can start with two, I like three, when available. If you are seeing mounted units, include at least one spearman.

With the new barb mentality, you must attack them, instead of waiting. Try to wait some to get them on open ground though, some guys actually clear the ground around their cities early on for stuff like this, (including AI attacks.) One axe fights while the other heals. If you've got horses, use them for scouting and the occasional pickoff of archers.

As I said in the other post, if you think this is too much defensive production, try having your improvements constantly sacked and your workers slaughtered in the early game, even if you can cover your cities with the customary two archers and walls.

The new "Great Wall" feature in Warlords is well worth the price of the whole box, especially if you play on "Raging." You don't get the barbs, as they are disallowed to enter your cultural boundaries. (Don't be fooled by a first edition glitch that doesn't extend the wall graphic all the way; your whole cultural boundary is covered.) Eveybody else does get the barbs. Nice, early game present for your rivals and it costs nothing diplomatically. I'd forgo Parthenon for this Wonder!

[Metaliturtle]

On raging I will reload to get a coastal spot, on Emperor with raging barbs you can get slaughtered without the devensive buffer of the sea.

[Guild3Master]

Well, if you think about it, the term barbarian really just means foreign, like the Romans though of everyone else outside their sphere of control.

[wodan11]

Thread necromancy.

[Metaliturtle]

+1! for Guild3Master!

And I do agree with the statement about Roman view of barbariananas...

[Blaupanzer]

Leaving barb cities up for unit training purposes most often means some other civ will end up with a multi-citizen pre-made city right on top of you. Take it or kill it as soon as you can.

In one game with an Old World start, large map, I found 4 barb cities had melded together in the new world. One was 15, 2 @ 12, and 1 @ 10. While each had its typical 3 soldier garrison, these and a few wandering barbs were willing to gang up at one city for defense. I had musketeers and cuirassiers and they had knights and macemen. Not easy to get enough of mine across the water to deal with that overblown set before my old world brethren showed up trying to get in on the action. Too bad such a linked set of barb cities couldn't have precipitated a random event tha allowed it to become a new civ in this game. Ah, well.