First Impressions (screenshots, etc.)

[Harovan]

By the way, can we please return to the discussion whether settlers are too cheap or not? Feeding strawmen leads us nowhere.

[Solver]

Another Wonder I forgot, BTW, the Collosus. Try it as a Financial civ for a really interesting effect.

I still don't find Settlers too cheap. Mainly, I don't have such a strong incentive to expand. Then again, I also use rather wide city spacing which might not be really optimal.

[Arrian]

I think settlers are pretty darned expensive, SR. 100 food/hammers... that's roughly equivalent to double a CivIII settler, right (20 food = 2 pop, 30 shields... 50 total units)?

From your earlier post:

So what do, when my capital reached that size 6..8, depending on the number of early resources? Buildings? There is not much to build that early. Wonders? Ditto, and in the REX phase you won't want your best city to go out of the build schedule for too long. Also, the early wonders obsolete way too fast, so they are not a priority.

What about specialists? If you found a religion, build a temple and you can make a priest. If you build a wonder, you can usually make a specialist or two... and those specialists can result in great people, and in turn those great people can be rather powerful.

I've been letting my capitol hit size 3 before starting on settlers, and after a few (with a few warriors mixed in) I'll do something else (wonder, other buildings). Hopefully a newer city can pick up the settler building duties by then.

There may indeed be cause to eventually tweak the cost of settlers in CivIV... although I think 200 food/hammers is extreme (unless in a mod specifically aimed at slowing expansion and fostering epic battles with barbarians).

-Arrian

[Harovan]

Well I do the opposite. I build my first settler in my capital when it is size 3-4, then build some basic improvements like barracks and/or library and as soon it is at or close to the cap, it's settler, settler, settler. If I have 2 food resources (improved by that time) and a couple of forest tiles to work at (usually not a problem either), numbers like 6 excess food and 4-6 hammers are reasonnable, which drops the time to build a setter to 8-10 turns on normal. A second city can build archers and a standing military inbetween, and city #3 .. #? build just improvements, or yield me the gold for upkeep (cottages!) or even start on a wonder or 2.

Specialists I use in due time. A shrine is great, but only if I founded an early religion, which I am not always able to achieve. Scientists to found Academies in your top cities are also great. I almost never use specialists for techs, at least not early ones. Long time effects are better than a free technology, which I can research in 2 turns after I built up my economy, or which the AI is glad to trade me.

[Arrian]

I use the first several great scientists on academies (unless I want a GA... that depends) in my best cities. Great Prophets tend to make the holy shrine thingy if I've founded religions (in all but my most recent game, I've founded multiple religions). Engineers, though... typically I don't get them until later, but if you have some stone and get the pyramids, you can use them to rush early wonders that generate more GPPs in addition to their effects... mmm. More points and more people and more point and more people and aaaaahhh!![/Beavis*]

Anyway, it seems to me that both have their advantages and disadvantages... we will see in time if either emerges as "THE" choice - in which case the strategic choice balance is off and will need to be addressed.

-Arrian

* - Beavis & Butthead. There was an episode where they came up with a plan to make photocopies of a dollar bill and become rich so they could get women. "We'll get more money, and we'll get some chicks, and we'll get some more money, and more chicks... more money and more chicks and more money, more chicks, more money more chicks aaaaaaahhh!" as Beavis worked himself into a frenzy. It was beautiful.

[Sirian]

Originally posted by yin26
we know the AI struggles with naval invasions.

We do? Tell that to Tokugawa.

My last Continents game on Emperor, my immediate neighbor Tokugawa declared war, sent in only two units by land, I moved my units to respond, expecting more to follow, but then he brought a naval force of two-galleys-full and ripped up my flank, took a city, and because I had an enemy on the other side of me as well, effectively knocked me out of the game.

I was the one struggling in that instance.


- Sirian

[yin26]

I mean that purely in the sense that it takes a great deal more of a coding effort to get the AI to use the sea properly. Land attacks are not only far easier for the AI but also far harder for the human to counter because of the various routes on entry AND because you can't simply sink a land ship and send a whole stack to the bottom of the sea.

Highlands for me from now on!

EDIT: Indeed, I noticed that many of the early "I beat the game!" reports were players protected by water. This was my perception at least.

[Harovan]

Highlands is great.

If only we could get X- and Y-wrapping, so that you don't have a "wall" (map limits) to cover your butt.

Sirian?

[yin26]

YES! EXACTLY!

[Nikolai]

I've lost a city only twice so far(it helps being a builder and avilding war if I don't have to enter it, but anyway...), and one of them was by purpose(it was worth nothing to me and situated as a one tile thing rigt bwtween of two of my enemies, for some reason that I got peace with its earlier owner before the revolt was over seems to have stopped it from gaining any tiles by culture... ), the other by sea. I was happily eradicating the Malinese when a ship with their troops showed up in the opposite part of my country right where I had both poor infrastructure by that time AND only a minimum of troops. I had to stall my assault in the Malinese heartland and hurry back to take back my land. When I had just done that, the Malinese brought my half-friend Bismarch(who unfortunately was more friendly to Mansa Musa), and I had to fastly get a peace with Mali, which thankfully was pretty easy as I by that time had taken half their land anyway, although with Bismarck, the third most powerful man in the world after me, and my by that thinly streched army, it was a difficult situatiuon. I managed to barely save my westernmost city near his border, by letting him eradicate my infrastructure there, while I attacked the only other place where our borders met. It resulted in a stalemate, and I only got a white peace after ruining my army and a bit of luck, plus the introduction of my ally Tucogawa, which barely let me save my border, but it was close. After that I thankfully got peace for the rest of the game and missed a space victory with 6 turns because the game ended in 2050.

[Dravin]

Not sure how to counter this yet. Any ideas?

Aircraft are your friend, some bombers can chew up a SoD pretty handily or even spread out units if you have enough or see them coming early enough, if he doesn't bunch up into a SoD some calvary (mechanical or otherwise) can be used to pick off those who can't handle it (of course catapults protected by spears/pikes puts a damper on that), if he is in a SoD early, bring some of your own catapults to the fight, one thing I've found is that just filling your cities with a bunch of unsupported garrison type units (archers, infantry) is asking for a bad day.

At least that's how I've managed so far.

[Sirian]

Originally posted by yin26
I mean that purely in the sense that it takes a great deal more of a coding effort to get the AI to use the sea properly. Land attacks are not only far easier for the AI but also far harder for the human to counter because of the various routes on entry AND because you can't simply sink a land ship and send a whole stack to the bottom of the sea.

I hope you do play something besides "Highlands from here to eternity". Try Great Plains and Oasis, Pangaea, Lakes, and especially Ice Age. Ice Age with Wide Continents can be nasty hard due to the general food shortage.

Water maps are definitely easier, by about a difficulty level give or take. Coping with AI navies is not as simple as that, though. You can do all KINDS of things on land with modifiers: terrain modifiers, promotions, cities, etc. At sea... it's straight up, and you will not dominate without a technological edge (caravel vs galley, destroyer vs frigate, etc).

How about this? Try an Emperor game of Archiepelago and LOOK at the AI's actual naval performance, rather than projecting forward from Civ3. You liked my Highlands recommendation, so give this a shot as well. Having a continent to yourself is one thing, but having your own empire scattered across multiple islands is something else.


- Sirian

[yin26]

Cool. Will do.

[Mace]

Originally posted by Sirian
How about this? Try an Emperor game of Archiepelago and LOOK at the AI's actual naval performance, rather than projecting forward from Civ3. You liked my Highlands recommendation, so give this a shot as well. Having a continent to yourself is one thing, but having your own empire scattered across multiple islands is something else.
- Sirian

Now THAT's the kind of game I like. Archipeligo.
I have not played one of those yet in Civ4. It will be my next game! I can just see it--Financial civ, Colossus, arch map. And Mace doing his old-school naval domination tricks...

[Solver]

Yin, don't stick to just one map type . Pangaea is also fun for an all-land game, Terra is an awesome map for those who have the RAM. Continents makes for some interesting games (and naval invasions), and Archipelago simply is very different.