First Impressions (screenshots, etc.)

[yin26]

Yes, those are good points. Of course, part of the way one can get these cities quickly is precisely because you *can* build a settler with a city population of 1, and that also seems couner-intutitive to a degree. Overall, of course, I think this new system is elegantly done! Simple, as you say, and effective.

Something a lot of gamers perhaps aren't aware of though, is that running negative for a while or moving your research down to 90-70% isn't a big deal. If you can get a higher volume of research from more cities, then 80% of a larger number can still be close to or surpass 100% of something smaller. And this is the element of that game that I need to test with the AI because if the player can get away with losing the tech game for a while, I hope I'll see the AI taking advantage.

On the issue of AI overall, I actually think there is something a lot more intutive going on here as well. In my screenshot above, I only have one side from which AIs can get me without going by sea (this is why I will stick with Highlands by the way!), and we know the AI struggles with naval invasions. So if I were to keep Catherine (orange) as a close ally, I might never see much of an attack against me unless somebody hostile to me also take down Catherine...but I would help her out if my goal were to win a space victory or something.

The point is I feel like there is a much greater sense of situational awareness. Not all games should default to AI trying to kill you for no reason other than to "challenge" the player. But if you get stuck between some AIs of differing religions who, via geography or otherwise, have other strategic advantages over you, then I *have* seen the AI steamroll me. This is quite promising to put it mildly. Still need more experience with all this, though.

[yin26]

Solver:

True, but volume still matters in the percentage game. Also, if I stay with fewer cities in the early game, I might gain some advantage there, but long-term if I don't get new cities via conquest or culture flip, then I simply won't be able to keep pace with an AI that has had many turns to grow his 8 cities into something powerful and productive.

But to my way of thinking, this is a classicly good decision to make about how to approach the game!

[Solver]

I have generally adopted the habit of building only 5 or 6 cities of my own, but conquering my nearest neighbour. If I find out I am on a landmass with only one other civ, I go conquesting mode because I want the continent for myself.

However, decisions .

BTW, don't underestimate the naval AI, either. It's not pathetic and it's not like the AI would never invade you over water. It's simply that it's worse at naval invasions that land-based invasions, which isn't too big of a surprise. It doesn't mean, though, that you can get away with defending your own island with archers only in the Industrial era.

[Harovan]

I have to back Yins position here. Making settlers is still a bit too easy. The stalled growth during the building of settlers and workers doesn't harm me at all as soon as my city reaches the health/happiness barrier. At the countrary, at this point I don't want my city to grow anymore - the stalled growth is not a hinderance but actually a benefit.

So what do, when my capital reached that size 6..8, depending on the number of early resources? Buildings? There is not much to build that early. Wonders? Ditto, and in the REX phase you won't want your best city to go out of the build schedule for too long. Also, the early wonders obsolete way too fast, so they are not a priority.

Remains building settlers and workers.

The AI won't punish you that early, at least up to monarch (didn't test higher yet). If suffices to put one archer in each city and to have some scouting warriors. The AI already considers this a sufficient deterrent. I have played countless studies (I call so games I play only up to the mid of the medieval age, to test a strategy or feature) REXing like mad, but did not get attacked a single time.

Having to put down research is not an issue either, if you are a good player. The displayed percentage is just that, a ratio. I focus on food, then money in my early improvements and have quite some governors sitting on "focus on cash". That makes the cottages -> hamlets -> villages -> towns grow. Soon I will have the #1 GNP. If I put 60% of 100 into science and the AI 100% of 60 (while it concentrates on a insane military buildup, 3-7 defenders per city!), we both research equally fast. This additional military does the AI no good; I have never seen these archers and spearmen do anything than to sit as defenders in cities. If it would build offensive forces instead of overdefending its cities, this approach would not work.

I don't want to reintroduce the population drop, that would be an annoyance. However, settlers are a bit too cheap for my gusto still. I would recommend to gradually increase their cost, may be from 100 food/hammers gradually up to 200 or even more.

[Solver]

Play Epic anyway, the only way to go .

When I don't want to grow any larger, I prefer not to build extra Settler, but rather to start using specialists for a good GP influx as well. That's up to personal playstyle, though.

You're wrong however about early wonders not being a priority. Some of them are very good. Parthenon, Pyramids (!), Oracle or Stonehenge (especially if you've founded a religion) are all very good wonders in my book.

[Harovan]

Epic scales both timeflow and cost of everything up to 150%. It gives you more turns to move units around, but that's about it. I played studies both normal and epic, the difference in expansion speed (measured in years, not turns) is slim.

The wonders you listed are nice but unnecessary. Parthenon is useful only if you want to focus on GP, which I do in at most 1/3 of my games and studies. Stonehenge is great for early border expansion, however useless if you are creative, and it obsoletes with Calendar, which is a must-to-research if you need plantations. Pyramids gets you Representation early, which gives a nice boost. I don't know what the Oracle does, never built it so far. All nice and dandy, but I don't see the AI focus on early wonders either. Usually I can pick up 1-3 ancient wonders when I am done REXing.

[Arrian]

I have generally adopted the habit of building only 5 or 6 cities of my own, but conquering my nearest neighbour.

I started a new game last night to test rushing (sorta) a neighbor. I stepped up to Prince and chose the Greeks. I actually restarted twice to get a nice spot, because of the step up in difficulty and the change in strategy (plus, it seems that I had been unusually lucky with starting spots until last night). Standard continents map.

Anyway, I built 4 cities of my own and I also built the pyramids (I had stone)... why did I do this? Well, I had it in my head that I could use the civic that gives +1 hammer per town to great effect early. So I built more cottages than I ever had before... and then realized just how long it takes to get them up to town level. Yikes. So that didn't pan out. Shoulda built something else (either more units or a different wonder). Rushed the Gardens with an engineer. I later built the Colossus in a coastal city b/c I had copper and I triggered a GA with 2 GP's, so it was a quick build (again, wonder building while trying to rush, what was I doing??)

I had ivory, so I built 3 elephants, 2 catapults, a couple of phalanxes and 1 axeman. I attacked one of my neighbors, Persia.

I took one city (a city that, had I been attempting to REX, I would've settled), but then bogged down. Persia had ivory and construction too. I failed in my attempt to take down the 2nd city. Persia used a catapult to weaken my main attack stack, and just kept on whittling it down faster than I could heal (my medic-promoted phalanx should really have worked his way over to join the stack, but he was on the other side of the enemy city and kept getting beat up too).

I founded no religion. I had little culture. I was roughly even in tech. Blah.

There are, I think, several possibilities:

1) I wasn't focused enough. To hell with wonders - beeline for BW and Construction, build units, KILL.

2) Early warfare is just plain hard, and taking one city isn't really such a minor thing. Perhaps I should have then made peace, built up a bit more, and hit again.

3) I just suck.

-Arrian

[yin26]

Great discussion! I also tend to ignore most early wonders. There should be a closer look at that element of the game.

[Arrian]

I don't know what the Oracle does, never built it so far.

It gives you a free technology. Not shabby, if you have (stone?) to build it double-speed (and/or if you're industrious).

I like the Gardens and the Parthenon too - extra health + 1pop right away is pretty nice (or it can be, if you're not already right up against you happiness limit) and a GP boost can be pretty key.

-Arrian

p.s. One other thought about my game last night: I generated 3 GPs total. 2 were engineers. I held them for a while, eventually using one to rush a partly-completed HG. This was obviously bad GP management. I should have used the first one PRONTO to get something like the Oracle or Parthenon (both built by the AI) and the second I could have held for a GA or used on the Gardens (before investing any hammers in it!). I'm learning...

[Arrian]

I think I'll try that game again tonight. This time, I may go with a more "buildmonger" approach and hit somebody a little later on.

-Arrian

[Harovan]

Ah yes, Hanging Gardens. Great wonder indeed.

I didn't say early wonders are generally useless. They aren't. But they aren't a priority either, because the AI does not focus on wonders either, but rather on defensive military. You can build wonders later anytime.

[Arrian]

In my Greek game last night, the AI built the Stonehenge, the Oracle, the Parthenon and the Great Library. Maybe it doesn't focus on them single-mindedly, but if you don't, it will grab them.

-Arrian

[alexman]

Don't forget that wonders give Great Person points. So early wonders are worth more great people than late wonders. I sometimes build relatively useless wonders just for the great people.

[Solver]

You're underestimating the early wonders .

I love the Stonehenge because of Great prophet points. Guaranteed Prophet soonish to build a Shrine for your founded religion. The Oracle, timed right, can let you found Confucianism/Christianity or even get Feudalism. Very solid wonders, both of them.

[Harovan]

I don't underestimate them.

I repeat it the second time, and hence post it the third time:

They are not "useless". They just aren't a priority as long as I am expanding. I can always grab a few of them when I am done expanding. For most of the time I succeed. If not, it is not a tragedy either.