Yay moddability

[Lemmy]

The thing most civ-games have in common, and also contributed to their survivability must be the ease of changing the games parameters to something you like.
But how far can this go, how moddable can a game be made?
There are off course scripting languages, which can allow the player to program their own implementation of the games functions, but often these language need to be learned, and the script that come with the game has to be studied before one can actually start modding.
So far, games that didn't have scripting languages, only allowed the data to be modified, you could change the attack rating of a unit, or the hitpoints. But game mechanics we're always fixed, you can't for example tweak the combat formula in Civ3, or any of the formulas used in Civ3.

Now, after doing some of my own experimenting with generic formulas, i really wonder why no game has ever done it, making formulas changeable, just like the data is.
The design for having a generic formula is ridiculously simple.
Will it ever happen in a Civ-game? And what more of the civ games could be made moddable?

[Mark_Everson]

Hey Lemmy:

One reason off the top of my head why they don't allow you to change formulas is that the AI generally is hardcoded, and not smart enough to figure out the formula has changed. So it would be catastrophic for playability.

In Clash the AI will be smart enough for us to do it, but I have to admit, for now we haven't considered changing the core formulae in FE the military area. You can change lots of parameters that affect the battle outcome, but not the core stuff.

Is it all that important? We could do it if you can make a solid enough case. BTW, I'm going on a trip tomorrow, so don't take it personally if I don't respond for a week or so.

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by Mark_Everson
Hey Lemmy:

One reason off the top of my head why they don't allow you to change formulas is that the AI generally is hardcoded, and not smart enough to figure out the formula has changed. So it would be catastrophic for playability.

In Clash the AI will be smart enough for us to do it, but I have to admit, for now we haven't considered changing the core formulae in FE the military area. You can change lots of parameters that affect the battle outcome, but not the core stuff.

Another cool post. IMO you don't need to make everything moddable........but strike a balance, so that more is moddable than usually is the case.

[Lemmy]

Mark:
Some initial thoughts...i'll probably have posted a longer version when you get back:

One reason off the top of my head why they don't allow you to change formulas is that the AI generally is hardcoded, and not smart enough to figure out the formula has changed. So it would be catastrophic for playability.

Guess you're right about that, didn't think about that one yet...though it would seem that if can AI think ahead, it would be able to cope with changing formulas, maybe that's what you're referring to when you say Clash can handle it

In Clash the AI will be smart enough for us to do it, but I have to admit, for now we haven't considered changing the core formulae in FE the military area. You can change lots of parameters that affect the battle outcome, but not the core stuff.

It's true that a lot can be accomplished with changing parameters, and formulas can be too complex to be made moddable. My proposal was more directed at changing simple formulas, calculations that can be done in one line, with only arithmic functions, and no computer functions like "if" or "while".
One idea i've been thinking about was how a civ game calculates unhappiness due to overpopulation, FE, it could be that when you're over a certain treshold, 1 extra pop, causes 1 extra unhappiness. One could want to change it so it becomes exponential, so instead of the unhappiness being "(currentPop - treshold)", one could make it "( 2 ^ (currentPop - treshold)) / 2".

IMO you don't need to make everything moddable........but strike a balance, so that more is moddable than usually is the case.

I agree with that, trying to make everything moddable could make things too complicated for the player/modder, and the programmer to be worth it. though i do think simple game formulas as described above, can be worth it.
One thing that just popped in my mind is the way Civ3 (do handles (handled, never tried PTW) corruption, and how corruption reducing buliding, only gained away 1 extra gold and shield, i would rather have it to be a percentage instead of a fixed number, for example each building reduces corruption by 10% instead of just 1 shield.

[DrSpike]

I guess it critically depends on interactions.......if AI is set up for one situation and you change it, the AI has to be able to adapt. I think that is why there is a constraint on what can be made moddable.

[LDiCesare]

I think there are several reasons to that:
-People didn't think of it.
-The AI couldn't handle it easily.
-If you do some formula that somehow provide numbers outside the expected ranges, the game might crash because it will never have been tested against such a formula.

Also, most games have simple models, except maybe for the military, which often use integers with a very limited range. e.g: Number of unhappy citizens in civ: you have to work out an equation in the ranges of 1-30 (integers).

I also think game developpers don't think modders are able to balance games properly, and such extreme modding power would make it very hard to balance the games, so they think it would be a waste of energy to provide players with tools they will not be able to use. (Think of Firaxis comments about scripting languages - then look at CtP2 mods and scorn at Firaxis).

There is also the very slight possibility they don't do it for performance reasons. That would be very questionable, however, but seeing how software managers act in a silly way with respect to performance, I thought it could be a possibility.

[Lemmy]

-If you do some formula that somehow provide numbers outside the expected ranges, the game might crash because it will never have been tested against such a formula.

Wouldn't the same problem occur with moddable data?

then look at CtP2 mods and scorn at Firaxis

i was just thinking that when i read what you said

[LDiCesare]

Wouldn't the same problem occur with moddable data?

You are probably right, but the error recovery is more complicated, in particular because you have to wait for evaluation of the expression before you realize it goes wrong. That means instead of the game issuing an error mesage on start, it will wait until you fight a decisive fight to detect the slight error in an equation and stop you there. Which is more annoying.

[War4ever]

modding will greatly extend the life of your game if it is any good though...

[Lemmy]

You are probably right, but the error recovery is more complicated, in particular because you have to wait for evaluation of the expression before you realize it goes wrong. That means instead of the game issuing an error mesage on start, it will wait until you fight a decisive fight to detect the slight error in an equation and stop you there. Which is more annoying.

It is possible to check the equations at the start, and then check the critical data members for specific values.
For example, there is a division somewhere in the equation, you record by what data member it is divided by, and check when loading the data member to see if it isn't 0.
You can still have weird values off course, but hey, modding has always had this "at your own risk" thing.

[Immortal Wombat]

Originally posted by LDiCesare
(Think of Firaxis comments about scripting languages - then look at CtP2 mods and scorn at Firaxis).

Oh indeed. Every day.

[Peter Triggs]

I'll second that.