Why is plains cow considered a bad start?

[Sir Og]

I have seen Krill(amongst others) make that comment in several threads here.

So why is plains cow considered a bad starting resource? I understand why calendar resources are not good as starting resources in you capitol but I like plains cow.
I haven't done the math but since it gives 6 resources overall I consider it just as good as the other resources that give six resources. The differences being that you don't have to whip because you grow slower, but that is offset by more hammers.

So what am I missing?

[OzzyKP]

I may not be as much of a micro-manager as some of the hardcore folks, but I love plains cow.

[Ming]

Personally, I think cows are great, either on plains or grasaslands.

But I think it depends on the situation. Most starting positions have access to food resources, and they are critical to early fast growth. The other week in an MP game, the only food resources available for my capital were two plains cows. I'm sure the computer thought I should be satisfied because I had two "food" specials in my BFC. However, with only two fresh water squares available to me (the typical one square river), I really didn't have the food that other civs had, and fell behind early because of it.

[Sir Og]

At what difficulty are you playing MP Ming?

[Ming]

In MP, the difficulity level is kind of irrelevent since you are mostly playing against other humans and everybody is equal. We traditionally play nobel for that reason in our friendly games.

[Sir Og]

It is relevant because of the health and happiness caps.

I asked because you said food is importnant for fast grouth in the beginning. On higher difficulty you quickly reach the hapiness limit and there isn't much you can do with that excess food.

From my understanding of the game in the beginning you build units and workers/settlers. For that purpose food and hammers are interchangable through the whip mechanic and because of the way worker and settlers are produced.
The only thing that I can think of where food has no substitute is for running specialists, but I am not sure if the period when you run specialist qualifies as "early game"

I guess this comes down to the math but I am too lazy to do it. If you work 6 food at size 1 and if you work 3 food 3 hammers at size 1 what are the outcomes in term of total hammers produced and final city size after n turns.

[Ming]

Ahhh... I understand your comment about the caps. My irrelevent comment was more focused toward the fact that everybody is the same and has to deal with it.

And while I understand you point that food and hammers are interchangable... there are some differences. Without a good food resource, it takes a very long time for your city to grow so that you can even use the whip. And while you may be cranking more hammers at city size one, you can't compete with a size two or three city. And if you go worker first, it could be a very long time before it gets to size two. Some people like to let their cities grow before creating workers/settlers so that overall, it takes shorter to crank them out. If you are stuck with a very slow growing city, you are really screwed.

And yes, you might as well blow off thinking about an early mids/SE economy since you won't have the ablitiy to really execute it properly.

[Sir Og]

I guess that in MP it is not a good idea to start with worker first, but it probably isn't a good idea to work 3 food in the beginning either. (you would probably want to build those warriors ASAP)

Now that I have thought more about it 6 food allows you to work 4 grassland hills(if you have them) which eventually gives more production than plains cow and a combination of farms and grassland hills. If you add the fact that it allows specialist I think I understand why some people think that plains cow is not as good.

[Ming]

It depends... some of the "experts" crank out 2 or 3 workers very early. In most of our games, it depends who is in them and your starting location. I prefer to start with a worker or work boat, but usually end up with a warrior to start. If I'm on a plains/hill where it is 8 turns to grow and 8 for a warrior, I build the warrior. If I'm on a finger near the ocean, and I can see anything approaching me with lot's of lead time, I may go workboat if I have a sea resource or worker if I can put him to use right away based on land and starting techs. I might put a few turns toward a warrior in case I need to switch to one in a hurry. Plus, if I start with a scout, I figure I'm going to need a warrior or two soon enough anyway that I might as well start with one. It really all depends.

However, if I'm playing with certain players in the game who are known for the early takedown and the stealing of workers, I will bite the bullet and always build a warrior.

[rah]

Traditionally you cap will have two or more food specials. (or flood plains) the best an oasis or plains cow is going to give you is 3 food or plus 1. If you have two the best is plus 2. That isn't going to help you grow or work specialists. I don't mind getting one plain cow as long as the other one is something that will get me more in the plus catagory.

[Norselord]

Is it initiative?

Regardless of which you start with, wheat or cows, you probably need roads to connect them. And at least one worker.

Look at the options:

Player A starts with wheat and Agriculture
Player B starts with wheat without agriculture
Player C starts with cows with agriculture or hunting
Player D starts with cows without agriculture or hunting

Player A gets access to wheat without any beakers
Player B gets access to wheat by spending 60 beakers for agriculture
Player C gets access to cows by spending 100 beakers for animal husbandry
Player D gets access to cows by spending 140 beakers for hunting+animal husbandry

early research rate = 5 beakers/turn (not sure if thats right)
Player A gets resource 12 turns faster than B.
Player B gets resource 8 turns faster than C.
Player C gets resource 8 turn faster than D.

Multiply those turns by the hammers and food gained, and if all players play at the same strength, then player A will come out of the gate faster. Especially if, as was mentioned earlier in this thread, slavery is used for whipping -- which makes food and pop > hammers.

Just my thinking on the subject...i could be overlooking something.

[Krill]

The best example I can think of is integrals, and slaving. Compare the two starts, an irrigated corn and plains cow. Assume no techs need to be researched (which favours the cow because of not needing to tech AH). It takes 15 turns to build a worker (no boni), and then 4 turns to improve the plains cow, or 5 for the corn. It then takes, assuming working max food:

1. growth to size 2 on t20 (end of turn)
2. size 3, t24
3. size 4, t28
4. size 5, t33
5. size 6, t37
6. build a settler, slaved on t39.

Total hammers produced, 6*1+4*2+4*3+5*4+4*5=66 hammers, assuming growth on grass forests (2 food 1 hammer tiles).

For the plains cow, it goes more like this:

1. growth to size 2 on t22 (end of turn)
2. size 3, t29
3. size 4, t38
4. size 5, t48
5. size 6, t58
6. build a settler, slaved on t610.

Total hammers produced, 8*1+7*2+9*3+10*4+10*5=131 hammers, assuming growth on grass forests (2 food 1 hammer tiles). Almost double the hammers, but can't be invested into useful units without stopping growth.

This is the reason why you don't slave with low food starts, it is better to just grow straight to size 5 or whatever and pump out workers and settlers. The corn start gets out a settler more than 20 turns quicker than the plains cow, and hence starts the snowball quicker. Basically, pop is power, the more pop you can get quicker, the better off you are. That corn start would have another 21 turns to increase production via a second city, and via regrowth, so would probably outstrip the plains cow for pure production (it's 65 hammers short, and even accounting for 3 turns moving, you'd get back 18 production just from the city tile. Add in an extra 2 pop slave from the capital (worker) and you are already ahead).

[Norselord]

The best example I can think of is integrals, and slaving. Compare the two starts, an irrigated corn and plains cow. Assume no techs need to be researched (which favours the cow because of not needing to tech AH). It takes 15 turns to build a worker (no boni), and then 4 turns to improve the plains cow, or 5 for the corn. It then takes, assuming working max food:

1. growth to size 2 on t20 (end of turn)
2. size 3, t24
3. size 4, t28
4. size 5, t33
5. size 6, t37
6. build a settler, slaved on t39.

Total hammers produced, 6*1+4*2+4*3+5*4+4*5=66 hammers, assuming growth on grass forests (2 food 1 hammer tiles).

For the plains cow, it goes more like this:

1. growth to size 2 on t22 (end of turn)
2. size 3, t29
3. size 4, t38
4. size 5, t48
5. size 6, t58
6. build a settler, slaved on t610.

Total hammers produced, 8*1+7*2+9*3+10*4+10*5=131 hammers, assuming growth on grass forests (2 food 1 hammer tiles). Almost double the hammers, but can't be invested into useful units without stopping growth.

This is the reason why you don't slave with low food starts, it is better to just grow straight to size 5 or whatever and pump out workers and settlers. The corn start gets out a settler more than 20 turns quicker than the plains cow, and hence starts the snowball quicker. Basically, pop is power, the more pop you can get quicker, the better off you are. That corn start would have another 21 turns to increase production via a second city, and via regrowth, so would probably outstrip the plains cow for pure production (it's 65 hammers short, and even accounting for 3 turns moving, you'd get back 18 production just from the city tile. Add in an extra 2 pop slave from the capital (worker) and you are already ahead).

Yeah, combine that what i was saying as far as teching goes, and its pretty straightforward that the cow is worse than the wheat...

[trev]

I like plains cows generally because I favour a hammer heavy approach to the early game rather than a lot of whipping. That said a stronger backup food square is handy for faster growth to combine with it.

[Krill]

It doesn't really matter what a person prefers, that is merely an opinion that has no valid place in a debate about balance.

Without the maths: Once you get granaries, whipping is the most powerful method of production available in the majority of games (there are exceptions, mainly the low food/high hammer starts), because it lets you work cottages while growing. That means that you get a similar level of production compared to sitting at the happy cap and working mines, but you can tech as well combined with HR and some decent tricks to get extra cheap military units on overflow, and you have the most flexible strategy to both wage war and not crash your economy at the same time.