Noble to Prince - unbearable

[brandonjm8]

Good good man, 500 game at Deity level for Civ II. What was the point? You even said you only lost once.

After about 20 or 30 it got boring and if it hadn't been for MP or all the challenges (OCC, Early Landing, or no City) I would have stopped playing the game. Fortunately there was MP and all the challenges to keep it fresh.

well the one time i lost the AI got extremely huge for civ2, he had well over 100 cities and was insanely strong, i think it was the sioux that game. i played more hoping to get that to happen again, that game i wanted a challenge so i stopped at 30 cities to see what happens, had i known hed get so big and reach the limit i wouldnt have stopped, i wanted it to happen again and play the best game of a lifetime ya know, sadly never happened (the biggest they ever got after that was 40 or so) but was bored and had nothing else to do in them days so played so more for the heck of it.

[Theben]

Argh, kill it!

[rah]

Yes please kill it. He'll make 500 posts for the heck of it, because he doesn't have anything better to do.

[-Jrabbit]

It's a mutual trolling society. It had some amusement, but now it's just like Civ2 on deity -- the amusement has faded into boredom.

[Ming]

Oh come on... trolling is a way of life at Poly

[Theben]

Only in OTF.

[rah]

It's a mutual trolling society. It had some amusement, but now it's just like Civ2 on deity -- the amusement has faded into boredom.

And it didn't take 500 games

[wodan11]

yes on specialist (my preferred btw)

Can you explain how to best do a SE... I'd be curious to hear your thoughts.

yes on culture (once, got very close alot of other times but either got the domination win or space win or diplo win)

You were going for a CV and had enough spare resources to do that other stuff, or you were doing other stuff and just happened to notice you were close to getting a CV? Serious question.

yes on cottage

Cottage? I didn't ask about CE. I asked about a SE->CE switch game. Entirely different, and an esoteric skill, which is why I asked... not many people know how to do it well.

a few times on warlord-only strategy but with the current settings i play on you must do more to be able to have the opportunity to kill everyone

What settings make it so ~25 Warlord units can't kill everyone?

no on the 2000BC bull rush since i dont play pangea maps nor have few enough AI's close enough to do so and since i usually dont play with barbs, they dont get wiped out which makes the game last longer which after all the civ games ive played i like and prefer. levels for each well so far only 3 on 4th game for prince on bts, two domination wins and a diplo. for noble on bts all above except bull rush since my settings. for vanilla all on monarch except bull rush since my settings (got close once, was before 1 A.D. tho).

That's funny because "bull rush" is a football term. I've never heard it applied to CIV before.

i know alot of strategies but not all, im very knowledgeable and efficient enough to have only lost one game in my life, i do have more to learn but i feel its fair that i do say im a "pro" civ player, not the best but i can hold my own. i may start to lose a few more here and there once i get up there on levels but i will win more than lose, im not being cocky or anything but i know i can and will.

I agree. Once you are a certain skill, it's hard to lose to the AI on Prince level.

[brandonjm8]

Yes please kill it. He'll make 500 posts for the heck of it, because he doesn't have anything better to do.

and yet you and theben and ming continue to reply to me as well, if i post 500 you each will too. if you had anything better to do you wouldnt have posted this post

[brandonjm8]

Can you explain how to best do a SE... I'd be curious to hear your thoughts.

oh man, where to start. my strategies for those tend to differ on settings used and starting locale and available land. for the most part i build alot more farmland so i can support alot of specialists, i tend to average 3-5 cottages in my cities only for some commerce. i also look to get multiple religions for their temples ect for more priests coupled with angkor wat wonder, that way my production skyrockets as well. if i only get one religion than i may build a couple more cottages per city for more commerce or just build more mines to have good production while still having alot of farmland for specialists, and that way i tend to get alot of great people too this way especially if i can get the parthenon too. then once i get biology i can support even more specialists with all the farmland i have ect. so far it works very well for me and i keep my production and beakers high while specializing some cities for science and gold to make money and have a high % towards science and the ability to change the gold slider for upgrading units quickly while having a decent science output with rep. gov't. how i do them will vary but im usually able to do this and out tech and out produce everyone else. with my current game i just dont have as many cities as the others but still have a slight lead on production and im 2nd power which helps with tokugawa and genghis in this game.

You were going for a CV and had enough spare resources to do that other stuff, or you were doing other stuff and just happened to notice you were close to getting a CV? Serious question.

IF i go for the CV, its only 3 cities dedicated for that. i tend to have large empires and many other specialized cities so yes. id prefer to get the domination win early if can but will win with diplo or space or CV if required. since i dont play with spys and the new patch it takes 300,000 points now to reach legendary, very f'ing hard. 150,000 points isnt that hard for only 3 cities but 300k thats hard so i tend to not go for CV if i can.

Cottage? I didn't ask about CE. I asked about a SE->CE switch game. Entirely different, and an esoteric skill, which is why I asked... not many people know how to do it well.

last time someone used CE they said it stood for cottage economy, if im wrong then i need more clarification to answer your question.

What settings make it so ~25 Warlord units can't kill everyone?

well since theres no barbs getting alot of GG's isnt easy, and i play continents so you have to wait til astronomy to kill everyone and by that time they are that much bigger/stronger and might even be impossible at the time.

That's funny because "bull rush" is a football term. I've never heard it applied to CIV before. , Done a 2000BC bull rush?(you asked this on a prior post)

since that term was used, i used it too to not confuse.

I agree. Once you are a certain skill, it's hard to lose to the AI on Prince level.

this game will test me since i had such a bad starting locale compare to the other AI's, but conquest might be outta the question but a domination win is possible but will see, i may very well run outta time or lose. but i think i can vassalize genghis soon and some others, hoping for it .

[Brael]

last time someone used CE they said it stood for cottage economy, if im wrong then i need more clarification to answer your question.

He means pulling off a switch from one to the other.

well since theres no barbs getting alot of GG's isnt easy, and i play continents so you have to wait til astronomy to kill everyone and by that time they are that much bigger/stronger and might even be impossible at the time.

Barbarians don't generate GG points.

[brandonjm8]

He means pulling off a switch from one to the other.

Barbarians don't generate GG points.

gotcha, no i dont switch it up from SE to CE or vice versa once ive committed to one, i usually do the SE anyways unless fresh water is scarce then i'll go the CE way. with SE you build much more farmland and with hills your production will be alot higher thus not having to WHIP units/buildings, i try not to WHIP unless im in dire need otherwise i let them build normally and/or chop so as the keep my cities growing and supporting more specialists.

gotcha on the barbs, been awhile since i had them on, guess if forgot. i dont build the great wall so GG are not so plentiful. and world wars or prolonged wars arent that common, of course that changes from time to time especially mid to late game. got 2 GG's this game, should get another or two once i start conquering genghis. im mobilizing my first SoD to go there, a good 25+ cavalry and 30+ riflemen and at least 10 treb's, need 20+ galleons tho, have 13 so far almost ready. im researching steel for the cannons and will have them in 3 turns, with that and my superior units and a good stack he should fall fast even tho hes #1 power, he doesnt even have gunpowder yet and he just started a war with victoria (6th power) so this is the perfect time to attack him, plus hes close to me and if i can take a good 10 cities off of him then vassalize him thatd really help out. then i can ally myself with giglamesh (5th power) which would really help since he has alot of cities and not too behind on techs and quite strong compared to the rest. i wont be able to win this game on my own, need an ally , sucks. pacal #1 in cities is f'ing growing fast but im catching up very quickly tech wise and with modernizing my army to cavalry/riflemen ive shot up to genghis and once i upgrade some more and kill off some of his i'll be the big superpower and keep vassalizing weaker civs hopefully, if i get genghis it shouldnt be hard. im surprised how well im doing with only 26 cities and the top three have 40+ and pacal's closing in on 60.

[wodan11]

oh man, where to start. my strategies for [SE]tend to differ on settings used and starting locale and available land. for the most part i build alot more farmland so i can support alot of specialists, i tend to average 3-5 cottages in my cities only for some commerce. i also look to get multiple religions for their temples ect for more priests coupled with angkor wat wonder, that way my production skyrockets as well. if i only get one religion than i may build a couple more cottages per city for more commerce or just build more mines to have good production while still having alot of farmland for specialists, and that way i tend to get alot of great people too this way especially if i can get the parthenon too. then once i get biology i can support even more specialists with all the farmland i have ect. so far it works very well for me and i keep my production and beakers high while specializing some cities for science and gold to make money and have a high % towards science and the ability to change the gold slider for upgrading units quickly while having a decent science output with rep. gov't.

That's about as solid a hybrid economy as you can get. 3-5+ cottages in most cities.

Some more Qs. What labor civic do you usually run? What's your science slider usually set at? Have you ever used all scientists instead of priests? How about using caste system? Have you ever set the science slider to 0% and left it there all game?

IF i go for the CV, its only 3 cities dedicated for that.

Only 3? It generally takes 9. Sounds like you do wonder/priest cities for your big 3.

i tend to have large empires and many other specialized cities so yes. id prefer to get the domination win early if can but will win with diplo or space or CV if required. since i dont play with spys and the new patch it takes 300,000 points now to reach legendary, very f'ing hard. 150,000 points isnt that hard for only 3 cities but 300k thats hard so i tend to not go for CV if i can.

But it's made much easier since all the espionage points generated by Courthouses, Intelligence Agency, and Security Bureau get changed to culture.

Sounds to me like you "back in" to a CV (like the Jets backed in to the playoffs this year).

last time someone used CE they said it stood for cottage economy, if im wrong then i need more clarification to answer your question.

SE->CE means you start out solid SE, no cottages at all except maybe your capitol, farms and slavery, then switch to serfdom, and as you approach Constitution as each city generates a great scientist you send in mass workers and change all the farms to cottages.

well since theres no barbs getting alot of GG's isnt easy

That's a moot point. The place to get Warlords is to get AIs to attack you early and often.

To get the most Warlords, build the great wall and, rather than invade others, invite attack. A good tool is to spread different religions so that AIs adopt religions other than yours. And, once they DOW you, never agree to peace. Let them bring it.

But DON'T build D units, build O units, and use them within your borders. You get more points for attacking than defending.

and i play continents so you have to wait til astronomy to kill everyone and by that time they are that much bigger/stronger and might even be impossible at the time.

What's Astronomy got to do with it? I don't care what they have. A dozen Mech Inf with CRIII, Combat VI, Commando, March, DrillIV, (and more) combined with a dozen Tanks with much the same plus Blitz, and a dozen bombers will kill anything.

That's 36 units if you were counting, not 500.

Besides, playing with Warlords is fun. And a lot less micromanagement. But that's probably a negative to you since I infer that you greatly enjoy micromanagement.

[wodan11]

gotcha, no i dont switch it up from SE to CE or vice versa once ive committed to one, i usually do the SE anyways unless fresh water is scarce then i'll go the CE way. with SE you build much more farmland and with hills your production will be alot higher thus not having to WHIP units/buildings, i try not to WHIP unless im in dire need otherwise i let them build normally and/or chop so as the keep my cities growing and supporting more specialists.

I'm dumbfounded... you think whipping is what you do in a CE to get production?

Whipping doesn't have anything to do with SE or CE. Whipping gets production, and is good when you have overflow food at max city size or a city with food resources before the city grows to even half size. That's true of either CE or SE.

Whipping hurts SE and CE equally because, with few exceptions, it removes specialsts or citizens working cottages. It sometimes is slightly better for SE because, food resources aside, a SE city has farms which enable it to regrow faster.

And so, the case for mines vs whip is mostly irrelevant to SE vs CE. Mines can be used with either economy and, in my judgment, are quite often a good idea in a CE.

gotcha on the barbs, been awhile since i had them on, guess if forgot. i dont build the great wall so GG are not so plentiful. and world wars or prolonged wars arent that common, of course that changes from time to time especially mid to late game.

I don't think you've ever tried to play a Warlord strategy? Probably gotten a couple of Warlords, but that's hardly a game strategy. Hopefully my description (above) will sound interesting enough that you give it a try?

[brandonjm8]

That's about as solid a hybrid economy as you can get. 3-5+ cottages in most cities.

Some more Qs. What labor civic do you usually run? What's your science slider usually set at? Have you ever used all scientists instead of priests? How about using caste system? Have you ever set the science slider to 0% and left it there all game?

some cities have 3-5 cottages some dont, depends on the land available for that particular city, i do tend to do a hybrid but i almost never exceed 5 cottages in any city, even my holy cities, id rather have them produce units too when needed since their capacity for more priests mean they will have high production and build units/buildings fast, i give them enough cottages to have at least 300+ beakers and sometimes get to 750+ gold/turn.

i run slavery just in case i need to WHIP some emergency units, otherwise i almost never use it, when i hit my max size's from health/happiness wise i either make them work more hammers or commerce or specialists, only if i really need some units or a wonder would i WHIP. besides WHIP'ing leads to unhappiness further slowing the growth down and my maxes tend to not last long so my cities grow quickly thus allowing me to have alot of specialists quickly and that way i can amass an army quickly and/or gold or beakers, whatever's needed. i use scientists in the early start when science is low otherwise the +1 gold and +1(+2 w/ angkor wat) hammers w/ rep gov't for an additional +3 beakers is in my opinion the best combo, but there are times i switch to scientists. once i get the vassalage tech i switch to serfdom and vassalage for gov'ts most of the time, i like my workers being as fast as they can be so my cities can grow quickly thus being more useful faster and adding to the production and economy quicker while making quick work of buildings so as to start building units preemptively and when needed. sometimes i run caste system but thats only if i have trouble with my science, which doesn't happen often. this is my preferred method of switching provided i can: build pyramids then switch to rep. if not then monarchy til i get rep, then switch to universal suffrage late game to hurry production. if im in a world war police state (provided i have it) til i have enough units then back to either rep or US. then i like to keep vassalage unless i need the extra commerce/hammers from beau. then free speech for the extra commerce and culture. serfdom for labor unless i need beakers, then once i get steam on to emancipation. for trade i only go to mercantilism if all other possible trading AI's are too unless i say the default til free market, then switch to environmentalism if and when i need the health after factories and maxing out my cities. organized religion throughout til i get factories then free religion for the added happiness and beakers. the only time i set the science slider to zero is when i need money for upgrading or others otherwise i keep a steady build-up of gold or max out as high as possible for science.

Only 3? It generally takes 9. Sounds like you do wonder/priest cities for your big 3.

well you only need 3 cities at legendary for CV so i only plan for that "at least" some other cities might get there too but with me needing 300k now itd take me 1500 turns give or take 200 to even reach it unless my science is rocking and i change to free speech fast but then i'll probably get the domination win since i have superior units throughout if that happens. i do priests for as many as possible provided i have several religions and got the angkor wat wonder, but whatever early high hammer producing cities tend to the wonder whoring for me if at all, and my holy city or cities gets wall street and extra great priests.

But it's made much easier since all the espionage points generated by Courthouses, Intelligence Agency, and Security Bureau get changed to culture.

not by much im afraid, plus the intel and security buildings take alot of hammers in marathon speed and id rather if needed build units then and when i have enough i'll build those buildings. if i get the sistine chapel then my culture skyrockets from all of my specialists/religious buildings and thus making CV more probable.

Sounds to me like you "back in" to a CV (like the Jets backed in to the playoffs this year).

yep , i dont well it isnt my main way of winning but if needed i'll take it. funny btw bout the jets , GO VIKINGS :P

SE->CE means you start out solid SE, no cottages at all except maybe your capitol, farms and slavery, then switch to serfdom, and as you approach Constitution as each city generates a great scientist you send in mass workers and change all the farms to cottages.

i have done that but prefer to stick to my hybrid when possible, its a great balance of commerce and production and allows me to dominate most of the time.

That's a moot point. The place to get Warlords is to get AIs to attack you early and often. To get the most Warlords, build the great wall and, rather than invade others, invite attack. A good tool is to spread different religions so that AIs adopt religions other than yours. And, once they DOW you, never agree to peace. Let them bring it. But DON'T build D units, build O units, and use them within your borders. You get more points for attacking than defending.

im no monty here , i micromanage thus i plan alot and bide my time and attack when the times right and im ready, i dont give in either, NEVER MUAH HAHAHAHA COME GET SOME TOKUGAWA/MONTY/GENGHIS . i say bring it if they want but seldom do i start wars unless they've attacked me prior or im ready to wipe them out or make them my biatch. but if i do see an army coming for me i'll DoW on them and we'll fight in the open instead of in my land unless i didnt catch the army with my scouts. my D units are only units given the drill promos so they can attack too, i only give units CG if they are too never leave the city/fort. i keep my defenders with drill in my cities and build separate SoD's for conquering/attacking invaders then and if they should fail i have plenty of reserves to mop up the rest and then when i want to destroy not vassalize i'll send some of those defenders with my SoD to ensure TOTAL DESTRUCTION, i build alot of units and balance it out. for example this game i have over 50 cavalry/40 riflemen/10 soon to be cannons and my outdated defenders with promos yet to be upgraded so an extra 80-90 future riflemen then infantry, i send my attackers on conquering missions and leave some to defend with my older units while im slowly upgrading them and my SoD is capturing cities. im sending like 25 cavalry and 30 riflemen and 10 cannons to genghis to capture some cities and make him my biatch againts his macemen/knights shouldnt be hard i could send more but i got two strong AI's on my continent that could attack at anytime and im focused on genghis at the moment.

What's Astronomy got to do with it? I don't care what they have. A dozen Mech Inf with CRIII, Combat VI, Commando, March, DrillIV, (and more) combined with a dozen Tanks with much the same plus Blitz, and a dozen bombers will kill anything.

thats late game buddy , only some of my games make it that far. and early game you dont have those awesome units so to kill a strong AI that has been building up for 300-600 turns will take alot more units if you wish to destroy them or less if you wish to only vassalize them. early conquest is never possible with my settings, i play only continents its more realistic and tends to be more of a challenge since im fighting fortified strongholds as opposed to newly ancient era civs.

That's 36 units if you were counting, not 500.

500 what?
its very easy conquering others with top-o-line techs with awesome promos especially if they arent on the same tech page as yourself .

Besides, playing with Warlords is fun. And a lot less micromanagement. But that's probably a negative to you since I infer that you greatly enjoy micromanagement.

i admit im a thinker, i take my time when i can then act fast and come with the thunder . plus with my settings you cant win early, maybe mid game but more than likely mid to late or just late game if at all .