Alone with Space, No Luxuries

[wodan11]

I'm with Ming. I would say that pyramids is almost always a good idea, even without stone/Ind. Reason being is that even straight up, you get quite a good conversion of hammers to gold if you get beat out. This allows you to run at a deficit slider which is very beneficial to an early game economy.

:ninja: I do agree with slnz that pyramids is not required to do a SE. It's nice, sure, but it has a price tag. All in all I'd rather have it but I'm not going to panic and start cottaging if I don't get it.

[rah]

Yeah, and if you're on an island all by yourself, you'd better be wonder whoring. It's just a matter of which ones.

[Ming]

Yeah... it isn't required to run an SE economy... but it sure makes it a heck of lot better

[Space05us]

What is a SE economy?

[rah]

SE=Specialist economy
CE=cottage economy

[Ming]

Stands for "Specialist Economy"... Like CE stands for "Cottage Economy"... And sometimes, you play a little bit of both. With a specialist economy, you irriagate a lot more squares, and use the extra food to create specialists in your cities to drive your science. With a library and two scientists in every city, you don't need to keep your slider up to 100% to have a good science rate. Even at 0% science rate, you can generate a ton of science. A cottage economy pretty much is what it says... you spam cottages and you can keep your slider high on the science side. I'm usually using a little bit of each, and hopefully throwing in elements of a sea based economy or religious economy. It all depends on my land, civ, situation, and the luck of the draw

[slnz]

That's your opinion... and it's wrong. Even without Stone/Industrius, it can usually be built before the AI. And if by some chance you get beat to it, you will get a substancial amount of money that can be very useful, allowing you to run at a deficet if needed early. You call it a crutch, but it's really a tool. Like any tool, it just needs to be used right. If the situation doesn't call for it, fine. But to claim it's a bad idea without stone/ind ignores the fact that the land and situation might call for it.

That "substantial amount" is 1:1 : , same as Wealth, with the exception of not getting the returns immediately. So worse than building Wealth. Not the best of deals in my book. Building wonders for failure cash is basic game in isolation but not without Ind/resourceboost.

I've yet to see land/situation that warrants using 500 early hammers for Representation. Same could be used for faster expansion to get those cities up faster, resulting in a lasting economy gain. Isolation makes building it easier, but often using it less viable. If you're low on luxuries (as in OPs scenario) it's usually much better to tech Monarchy and get an infinite happy cap rather than cap yourself at +3 at five cities - a limited-city happy cap of 7 is not my idea of good happiness control. 7 might be acceptable for a SE, but 4 from the 6th city on... That's harsh. It's a tool that needs to be used right for sure, and IMO the right use is not to build it without prod bonuses

Also a thing to note about isolation Repr, usually diplo can be pretty harsh when you discover the world since you won't have their religions and no peace/OB/resource diplo bonuses. HR is a much much better diplo civic than Repr in 90% of games.

Any of the ideas you suggest could also be considered crutchs... what makes your ideas ok but pyramids a crutch? Just asking

Seems we have different definitions of the term. A crutch is something people often rely on as a big part of their game plan in a huge portion of their games unable to play their best without it. Building any of the "convenience wonders", namely GW (fogbust instead) or SH (this often just sucks for non-CHA who don't start with Mysti) or 'Mids every game even when it's not optimal are good examples of such. Rushing every game below Monarch is another.

I'm not saying you use it as a crutch, just that a lot of people do. It's painful to regularly see people building it without Stone/Ind with a FIN leader in the middle of river heaven...

If you are expanding slowly on an island where there is little need for a strong army at first, a city can be dedicated to building it. It makes a SE economy far better and will give you the edge in tech development. So at least when you meet the neighbors, you will probably be ahead of them and can back fill the less important techs.

The fact that it never expires is just another bonus...

As I said it doesn't necessarily give that much edge over what you'd have if you'd made settlers and workers instead. Plus you're always at risk to lose the race without Ind/Stone (main reason I don't recommend it) and if it fails you've just wasted tons of critical early game capital turns effectively building Wealth.

Sure, it looks good when you get 200+ bpt at 1AD every game you build it... But the tech benefit peaks early and with some bulbing you can trade your way back in easily with a lower bpt rate. You get that library scientist grind up so much earlier when skipping 'Mids so when it counts you might actually have more trading power with bulbs vs bpt alone. Specialists don't really need that much bpt, especially in the early-mid game.

Also depending on the situation it expires at Monarchy, Constitution, US or Fascism. I've went 'Mids->HR in isolation just for the denying value and to avoid the tech detour but not without bonuses.

All that said, I might just have traumas from force-building 'Mids... I used to do that a lot, before I realized how much more you can get out of your empire if you think a bit instead instead of putting brain on autopilot and slapping 2 Repr scientists everywhere. Plus to put things into context I don't recommend building almost any world wonders without a resource/IND bonus or a GE. SH, GW, Oracle and resourceless wonders (GLH, AP) are exceptions of course, sometimes along with TGL.

[wodan11]

Stands for "Specialist Economy"... Like CE stands for "Cottage Economy"... And sometimes, you play a little bit of both. With a specialist economy, you irriagate a lot more squares, and use the extra food to create specialists in your cities to drive your science. With a library and two scientists in every city, you don't need to keep your slider up to 100% to have a good science rate. Even at 0% science rate, you can generate a ton of science. A cottage economy pretty much is what it says... you spam cottages and you can keep your slider high on the science side. I'm usually using a little bit of each, and hopefully throwing in elements of a sea based economy or religious economy. It all depends on my land, civ, situation, and the luck of the draw

Not nitpicking your play style, Ming... we should make clear for everyone though that if we're going to use the culture slider for happiness than doing "a little of each" is not really a good idea. We need to try to stick with pure specialists and little to no commerce income (except the oddball river or whatnot, which you can't help; use it for water and forget about the commerce).

[wodan11]

That "substantial amount" is 1:1 : , same as Wealth, with the exception of not getting the returns immediately. So worse than building Wealth. Not the best of deals in my book.

Except that at that point in the game building wealth is not even a wet dream. So yes, it's a pretty good deal.

Sure, having stone and/or Industrious is gravy. But not essential.

If you're low on luxuries (as in OPs scenario) it's usually much better to tech Monarchy and get an infinite happy cap rather than cap yourself at +3 at five cities - a limited-city happy cap of 7 is not my idea of good happiness control.

Given that you also have pretty harsh health cap prior to having plantations (depending on skill level), this isn't that much of a bad thing. And, since we're talking a SE here, if you don't have happy resources, you can do a culture slider as I've been talking about.

Bottom line, happiness should not be the deciding factor of whether to build pyramids for your SE.

Research is king. Hammers are a tool to get more research. Whether you're building units, or settlers, or buildings, or wonders. ~500 hammers to get an extra +7-9 beakers per city is a heck of a deal. With only 6 cities that's ~50/turn. Even at only 1:1 that's only 10 turns to convert your hammers to beakers and get your investment back.

Also a thing to note about isolation Repr, usually diplo can be pretty harsh when you discover the world since you won't have their religions and no peace/OB/resource diplo bonuses. HR is a much much better diplo civic than Repr in 90% of games.

That's a point but there's no reason you can't convert to their religion as soon as it spreads to you. And, worse case, you can just ignore them. We ARE talking isolated here. Until ~50 turns after others have Astronomy there's no worry at all.

It's painful to regularly see people building it without Stone/Ind with a FIN leader in the middle of river heaven...

Blind obedience to any strategy, or willful ignorance of alternatives (c.f. archers ha!) is doing one's self a disservice.

As I said it doesn't necessarily give that much edge over what you'd have if you'd made settlers and workers instead.

Until you have CoL etc, there's a limit to the benefit provided by settlers/workers. The curve has an exponential drop that will kill you with maintenance. And so, devoting one city to making a wonder is not a big deal. All you do is devote your 3rd settler/city to making the 'mids. So it's an extra 15 turns before you get the 6th one out there... so what. Especially with an isolated start... there's nobody to compete for the prime city spots.

Plus you're always at risk to lose the race without Ind/Stone (main reason I don't recommend it) and if it fails you've just wasted tons of critical early game capital turns effectively building Wealth.

How is that a waste? Working a hammer tile such as a mine is as good or better than working coasts! Yet we have people here saying working coasts is a good option for strategy (and I agree). Yet working grass mine (1 + 3 or 4) is not?

Sure, it looks good when you get 200+ bpt at 1AD every game you build it... But the tech benefit peaks early and with some bulbing you can trade your way back in easily with a lower bpt rate. You get that library scientist grind up so much earlier when skipping 'Mids so when it counts you might actually have more trading power with bulbs vs bpt alone. Specialists don't really need that much bpt, especially in the early-mid game.

I agree. HOWEVER, the benefit from pyramids keeps growing and really cranks in the true midgame... the period between CoL and SciMeth or so. You seem to be doing your side-by-side comparison before that point, while the returns keep coming (up until the time we could have it otherwise, with Constitution).

All that said, I might just have traumas from force-building 'Mids... I used to do that a lot, before I realized how much more you can get out of your empire if you think a bit instead instead of putting brain on autopilot and slapping 2 Repr scientists everywhere. Plus to put things into context I don't recommend building almost any world wonders without a resource/IND bonus or a GE. SH, GW, Oracle and resourceless wonders (GLH, AP) are exceptions of course, sometimes along with TGL.

You definitely have a point about the blind doing of things without fully considering them.

[Ming]

That "substantial amount" is 1:1 : , same as Wealth, with the exception of not getting the returns immediately. So worse than building Wealth. Not the best of deals in my book. Building wonders for failure cash is basic game in isolation but not without Ind/resourceboost.

I didn't say I built it for purposes of wealth... when I start building it, my intent is to get it. However, if not (which is rare against the AI), then the money at least is useful. And you say it's worse than building wealth... I usually have mason long before curr

I've yet to see land/situation that warrants using 500 early hammers for Representation.

Then you obviously haven't played many games
About a third to half the time, I see great opportunities for early rep.

Same could be used for faster expansion to get those cities up faster, resulting in a lasting economy gain. Isolation makes building it easier, but often using it less viable.

The game is still rigged against early and fast expansion. That sixth and seventh city are pretty costly early in the game... you really need COL or currency to start expanding. If I go for the wonder, it doesn't stop me from getting to the same point of expansion.

If you're low on luxuries (as in OPs scenario) it's usually much better to tech Monarchy and get an infinite happy cap rather than cap yourself at +3 at five cities - a limited-city happy cap of 7 is not my idea of good happiness control. 7 might be acceptable for a SE, but 4 from the 6th city on... That's harsh. It's a tool that needs to be used right for sure, and IMO the right use is not to build it without prod bonuses

Cap of 7... maybe real early but I've never had a problem with it. Sure, your cities don't grow as fast since you are trying to use your extra food for specialists... which also give you much faster great people, which can provide better short term and long term effects. While you are busy building units to garrison some cities that will probably never see combat, and having to pay the maintence on them, It's not needed in early rep. And yes, it's a tool that needs to be used right, but not having production bonuses doesn't change what it can do for you if the situation is right.

Also a thing to note about isolation Repr, usually diplo can be pretty harsh when you discover the world since you won't have their religions and no peace/OB/resource diplo bonuses. HR is a much much better diplo civic than Repr in 90% of games.

HUH? no matter what civic you are, the same diplo problems occur unless you are using somebodies favorite civic. And as far as to your 90% of the time comment, 100% of the time, Rep is a better civic for science development. HR does nothing for that

Seems we have different definitions of the term. A crutch is something people often rely on as a big part of their game plan in a huge portion of their games unable to play their best without it. Building any of the "convenience wonders", namely GW (fogbust instead) or SH (this often just sucks for non-CHA who don't start with Mysti) or 'Mids every game even when it's not optimal are good examples of such. Rushing every game below Monarch is another.

Who ever said that I must have it, or if I don't get it, I can't play... Like any other wonder, or light bulb strategy... they are what they are... ways to play the game. Some could say that racing to HR is a crutch as well

I'm not saying you use it as a crutch, just that a lot of people do. It's painful to regularly see people building it without Stone/Ind with a FIN leader in the middle of river heaven...

It's even more painful to see people who ignore the strength of some of some of the wonders
I guess if you don't get stone/marble and are not ind, you don't build any wonders

Wonders are what they are... each of them have their strengths that can fit into your game plan. I'm not going to ignore them simply because I don't have production bonus resourse or i'm not indu. They aren't crutchs, they are simply tools. Use them right, just like any other element of the game, and they can help you.

]
As I said it doesn't necessarily give that much edge over what you'd have if you'd made settlers and workers instead. Plus you're always at risk to lose the race without Ind/Stone (main reason I don't recommend it) and if it fails you've just wasted tons of critical early game capital turns effectively building Wealth.

Again, that early, you can only expand so quick, or it drags you down. I never let it slow down my expansion. And so what if you fail (again, rare if you plan correctly)... the whole game is about risk. Every combat is a risk... you can lose those generals to 99% odds... risk is fun.

Sure, it looks good when you get 200+ bpt at 1AD every game you build it... But the tech benefit peaks early and with some bulbing you can trade your way back in easily with a lower bpt rate. You get that library scientist grind up so much earlier when skipping 'Mids so when it counts you might actually have more trading power with bulbs vs bpt alone. Specialists don't really need that much bpt, especially in the early-mid game.

I disagree that the tech benefit peaks early... you must not be using it right The early lead in science is something you can maintain throughtout the game, especially if you have tech trading and either or tech brokering on. And if you don't play either, than it really kicks ass.

Also depending on the situation it expires at Monarchy, Constitution, US or Fascism. I've went 'Mids->HR in isolation just for the denying value and to avoid the tech detour but not without bonuses.

No it doesn't expire... if you wish to try other civics, that's your choice, and something you get to do EARLY IN THE GAME... long before the sciences are available to you. Sure, once you've gone down the tech path, it is no longer needed... but that' way late in the game.

All that said, I might just have traumas from force-building 'Mids... I used to do that a lot, before I realized how much more you can get out of your empire if you think a bit instead instead of putting brain on autopilot and slapping 2 Repr scientists everywhere. Plus to put things into context I don't recommend building almost any world wonders without a resource/IND bonus or a GE. SH, GW, Oracle and resourceless wonders (GLH, AP) are exceptions of course, sometimes along with TGL.

Gee... you seem to put your brain on auto pilot... ignoring how to use the land you have to the utmost.
Ignoring the value that the wonders can bring... ignoring the long term impact on your civ... while living by brainless rules of not building something unless you get it at a discount

[slnz]

Just for the record, I'm not saying early Repr isn't often good... I think it's very very good like everyone else. But 500 hammers at the most critical stage of the game is a huge price tag - even just IND cuts a Settler&Worker out of the price. In isolation there might be a situation calling for that but even then I'd rather get more specialists working fast to bulb my way out... Doing it outside isolation is just asking to get boxed in.

Then you obviously haven't played many games
About a third to half the time, I see great opportunities for early rep.

Opportunity for using early specialists doesn't mean having to build the 'Mids...

HUH? no matter what civic you are, the same diplo problems occur unless you are using somebodies favorite civic. And as far as to your 90% of the time comment, 100% of the time, Rep is a better civic for science development. HR does nothing for that

What? Being able to grow to work half a dozen more cottages (or prod/farm/specialists if going that route) is "doing something for better science development" in my book.

It's even more painful to see people who ignore the strength of some of some of the wonders
I guess if you don't get stone/marble and are not ind, you don't build any wonders

Without the prod bonus I think very hard before going for a wonder, especially in the early game. Failing is much more probable and failgold is much less efficient.

Gee... you seem to put your brain on auto pilot... ignoring how to use the land you have to the utmost.
Ignoring the value that the wonders can bring... ignoring the long term impact on your civ... while living by brainless rules of not building something unless you get it at a discount

I'm not ignoring anything. I'm assessing the COST of something to the BENEFIT of something when compared to alternatives. Just so happens that this COST is halved with a resource bonus in a way doubling the benefit making alternatives less viable in comparison.


Btw you're a real piece of work when debating. Every other sentence is a smug implication that the other party sucks or has no idea what he's talking about. I'm not gonna get into a pissing contest about skills but these massed remarks are just ridiculous. What's your point? Everyone who disagrees with you is an idiot?

[Ming]

Btw you're a real piece of work when debating. Every other sentence is a smug implication that the other party sucks or has no idea what he's talking about. I'm not gonna get into a pissing contest about skills but these massed remarks are just ridiculous. What's your point? Everyone who disagrees with you is an idiot?

Gee... just responding to your attitude... like calling people robots, and making people feel that they are idiots if they don't agree with you. What, you are allowed to do it, but if somebody does it back to you, they are wrong.
Check your own posting style first before you acuse others of doing simply what you already do

[rah]

Let's get more analytical between REP and HR. Early on you really can't support that many cities. Happy comparisons between the two. What is reasonable? If I'm in rep, I can usually get to ENG first and build ND. If I'm rep I can usually reach COL first so even without the Oracle I can still get Conf. (the AI doesn't usually take COL with it).
If in HR I can grow larger cities earlier but if I'm not financial it takes a considerable length of time before the cottages can offset the extra beakers from my rep specialists.
If I'm in early rep, I can get to CS faster and make my capital more productive, (for spamming other wonders)
These are the type of details I want to see argued.

[rah]

Heck in most MP games with my brother, he'll race to 'mids while i'm expanding a little faster.
Depending on what I do while expanding will dictate who ends up better in the long haul. If I'm financial/CE or go GL/COL for a sea economy or end up with multiple shrines I can usually stay ahead a little in the tech race. Without one of those firing on all cylinders, His specialist economy will rule. My size advantage will eventually diminish since it's limited to how large I can get prior to certain techs. Other factors, like who's harrasing our borders, strategic and happy resources can tip the balance so it's hard to isolate the different strats totally.

[Dinner]

There are way to many abbreviations in this thread. Is it really so hard to type the whole word out so that some of us can figure out what the **** you're saying?