What is the best civ/leader combo for MP?

[Ming]

The problem in mp for Archers is that they usually aren't spammed when you need them. If you spend your entire early building spamming archers with no perceived need, you are probably falling behind because of the cost of building and maintaining them. If nobody shows up with that stack of chariots or axes, you are behind the eight ball, with an army that won't be worth squat in the next age... especially against swordsman and cats.
So it's kind of a catch 22. If the axeman do show up, you are fine, if not, you're screwed and you really don't have a lot to show for your effort. At least axeman and swordsman have greater shelf life

What we generally see is a "builder" who simply relies on a few archers in each city thinking it's enough... and that he can spam the extra archers the minute he see's he needs them... but then uually can't build enough of them quick enough

[Blaupanzer]

Ming, I get it, it's a risk, but how common is the dire scenario of no horses or copper for one of the MP players over time? Does this happen to at least one player per game? one per five games? ten?

In my SP experience, both being unavailable happens about once in 20 games; mostly due to distance and the flow of intervening barbs.

[wodan11]

The problem in mp for Archers is that they usually aren't spammed when you need them. If you spend your entire early building spamming archers with no perceived need, you are probably falling behind because of the cost of building and maintaining them. If nobody shows up with that stack of chariots or axes, you are behind the eight ball, with an army that won't be worth squat in the next age... especially against swordsman and cats.
So it's kind of a catch 22. If the axeman do show up, you are fine, if not, you're screwed and you really don't have a lot to show for your effort. At least axeman and swordsman have greater shelf life

What we generally see is a "builder" who simply relies on a few archers in each city thinking it's enough... and that he can spam the extra archers the minute he see's he needs them... but then uually can't build enough of them quick enough

Ming, couldn't the same be said about axes? If you spend 200 hammers, you're saying it's a good idea to spend them on axes but not archers? What's the difference? Maybe 2 gp in maintenance costs?

I guess I don't buy the argument. Either you're prepared, or you aren't. It doesn't matter if you're prepared with chariots, or axes, or archers. If you're willing to spend 200 hammers on axes but if axes weren't available would "rely" upon only 100 hammers of archers, then that's an entirely different problem than the choice of what unit you spend it on.

[rah]

Not that frequent but it happens to me more than 1 and 20 but more importantly, you may have horses and no copper but you started next to Pascal or some other spearman UU. Chariots are not going to help you.

And yes I know your premise was that you couldn't make axes. I was just pointing out that when whipping you only have so much time so you can only whip so many units regardless in a short period of time.

[rah]

Ming, couldn't the same be said about axes? If you spend 200 hammers, you're saying it's a good idea to spend them on axes but not archers? What's the difference? Maybe 2 gp in maintenance costs?

I guess I don't buy the argument. Either you're prepared, or you aren't. It doesn't matter if you're prepared with chariots, or axes, or archers. If you're willing to spend 200 hammers on axes but if axes weren't available would "rely" upon only 100 hammers of archers, then that's an entirely different problem than the choice of what unit you spend it on.

I think ming means that when he goes on the warpath those axes will go along and provide benefit where the archers may not.

[Krill]

Axes can be used to attack. That's the entire point, as Ming is implicitly saying the axes are being used as an attacking force, and the archers are defending. Anyone who thinks you can use an army of archers to attack an enemy who is fielding axes and better and win is deluded. And if you are stuck defending an axe rush without either chatios or cats you're screwed compared to the third party who is happily building.

And if this is for an FFA MP game, I'd probably go with Pacal, or depending on land, Joao. If unrestricted, always tempting to take Joao of Inca...

[wodan11]

That takes us full circle back to how risky it is to go for IW if you don't have copper. If you're planning on going "on the warpath" and don't have copper... well good luck with that. You'll need it, literally. If you're lucky enough, you won't get invaded. Probably not a thing you can do to avoid it, it comes down to pure luck in whether your neighbors happen to look your way.

[rah]

I guess the big thing is I don't plan on defending in cities, unless I really get caught with my pants down so the archers have little value.

[wodan11]

Axes can be used to attack. That's the entire point, as Ming is implicitly saying the axes are being used as an attacking force, and the archers are defending. Anyone who thinks you can use an army of archers to attack an enemy who is fielding axes and better and win is deluded. And if you are stuck defending an axe rush without either chatios or cats you're screwed compared to the third party who is happily building.

I suppose you're one of the ones who would drop the game if you didn't have copper. Those people are cretins with no sack.

[wodan11]

I guess the big thing is I don't plan on defending in cities, unless I really get caught with my pants down so the archers have little value.

How many times do I have to say, it's better to send your archers to attack the invaders in the open field?

[rah]

Having played with him before, I can say he doesn't lack a sack.

[Krill]

Depends on game format. Gamespy game? Get BW, find you have no copper, get archery, build 2 workers, archer, send it forward while roading, build settler, settle for copper. Will almost always work, but you have to be fast. TBH most time people don't get copper in their cap, so by doing this you are pretty much perfectly OK for hte rest of the game. Building more than 2 archers though and you are probably doing something wrong.

Pitboss game with diplo? Ditto, but you can use diplomacy to try for peace, and frequent checking of demographics helps.

[Krill]

I suppose you're one of the ones who would drop the game if you didn't have copper. Those people are cretins with no sack.

http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showthread.php?t=3422

I think you'd be wrong

[rah]

How many times do I have to say, it's better to send your archers to attack the invaders in the open field?

No one is debating that, I too will attack the invaders in the open field. I just prefer to do it with cats, axes and chariots. Archers only out of desperation. Never by choice.

[Krill]

And RAH, please make that a sig with a link...