What is the best civ/leader combo for MP?

[wodan11]

IMO the key to MP is not traits, but rather to realize what everybody is likely to do in the early rush portion of the game. e.g., beeline BW. Thus, UUs such as Bowman, Immortal, Dog Soldier, and War Chariot are good ideas.

If you can get established early with a solid early empire, then that's more important than trait or having FIN. If my opponent has FIN then I'll gladly take his cities with a good UU and/or Cha/Agg/Imp.

Cyrus as Charismatic/Imperialistic would be really good for a mass rush and getting promotions to really kick butt early.

Darius as Org/Fin would be able to leverage his UU to do well and get key territory while his traits get your economy going the fastest.

Hammurabi would do very well early and Org would allow the early empire expansion to be a bit larger than others.

Hatshepsut and Ramesses IMO would be good for a priest strategy and founding several religions to boost economy.

Sitting Bull would be good to run a SE, as your farms are not so subject to pillage, and UU would do well early, supplemented midgame by Xbows and Longbows.

Just me. YMMV.

[Ming]

Sure, it's important to understand what your opponents will do. But the real key is realizing what you need to do with the cards that you are dealt and then doing it

But I disagree with you about what Hatshepsut and Ramesses should be doing. If you are teching to found several religions, you have to ignore the military sciences... which can sometimes be a REAL bad thing in a MP game.

[Blaupanzer]

Also not sure a "Priest strategy" would work well in MP. I would expect most borders to be closed, so no spread. And as Ming notes, one can't come to the party a little later. If not up on techs, the other humans won't ignore you as the AI usually does until you catch up in military techs and troops. Overstrength chariots won't give you that much of an advantafe to let you do a two or four tech diversion while your opponents build a counter or three.

How does the MP crowd handle the Romans? Are they an available civ on random draw?The Romans can get Iron Working as the third tech out of the gate to build their maceman-lite swordsman. I would think this would about settle the whole game for any neighbor he meets at least until the far away players get construction.

[rah]

Axeman with shock will usually handle that problem.
Yes, they're available.
Yes, if they're my neighbor, construction is the priority after bronze. It's usually a priority but you can usually get away with a slight diversion, but with neighbors like that, no diversion today.

[wodan11]

But the real key is realizing what you need to do with the cards that you are dealt and then doing it

What does that mean? Huh? "China is here." I don't even know what the hell that means.

But I disagree with you about what Hatshepsut and Ramesses should be doing. If you are teching to found several religions, you have to ignore the military sciences... which can sometimes be a REAL bad thing in a MP game.

Why do you have to ignore the military sciences? Unless you're saying the military sciences are ALL you can research. Surely you can squeeze in a religious tech here and there. According to your logic, nobody else is researching them. So, you don't have to prioritize them and they should be easy to get.

Also not sure a "Priest strategy" would work well in MP.

Priests give you hammers, gold, prophets, and research with Rep. What's not to like?

Overstrength chariots won't give you that much of an advantage to let you do a two or four tech diversion while your opponents build a counter or three.

They come earlier. Besides, I didn't say you ignore BW or anything like that.

War Chariots are not simply overstrength chariots. Compare them to Axemen. War Chariots are move 2, immune to FS, 10% retreat, 15% cheaper (in hammers), and str 10 vs Axemen.

AH costs 100 beakers from game start for Egypt vs opponent who are at best 130 for BW (for leaders who start with Mining, 180 otherwise).

[rah]

Everytime I try to sneak in a religious tech, I'm praying that I don't get caught with my pants down. Yes, if you start with mysticism and you don't try for one then you wasted starting with mysticism. But having said that, I've done that and been eliminated quite soon afterwards by someone that prioritized a military tech. Ming is just saying that when you figure out who your neighbors are, you should plan accordingly. It's like do I dare go worker or settler first. There are some players that rarely early rush. Some will dow with a single warrior in the first 10 turns hoping you were dumb enough to go worker first or working a flood plain so you warrior isn't done yet. Knowing your opponents can be important. Just like some of AI personalities, some human players are predictable and some will always act like a smarter version of Monty.

If I start next to the egypt, I prioritize spearmen. Common sense.

[Ming]

What does that mean? Huh? "China is here." I don't even know what the hell that means.

As rah is saying... you are next to the egyptians (0r anybody else with an early mounted UU), better get BW and Hunting and build spearman.
Next to the romans, better find metal and build axeman
Next to the North Americans, better build chariots.

Also, knowing what the strengths of your Civ really is, and then matching it up to what's actually available to you in terms of land and position. The problem with many SP'ers who move to MP is that they try their normal strategy no matter what civ or land they get. You must adapt, and adapt quickly or die. You don't neccessariy dare to build a worker or work boat first if you are in the middle of the board... maybe if you are next to known peaceful people, or on a tip where you can see somebody coming... but it can be a big risk. Many people get eliminated early doing just that.

[slnz]

Why on earth would anyone aim for an early religion in MP? One of the biggest benefits from that, diplo from neighbors (if they don't found one themselves), is 100% negated in MP. The delayed worker techs & expansion is a big risk even in SP, I would imagine it's much more so in MP.

[Ming]

If you start with Myst, most people will try to get the religion. For happiness or later financial gain. It's also good for the cultural boost the city gets. And many times, you may not even make it your official religion until you have happiness problems.

But you are right... you fall behind in the military techs when you do so. Nothing worse than getting an early religion and then finding two axeman or chariots on your doorstep... toast time

Don't get me wrong. Religions can be powerful in MP games, but there are risks involved. Getting COL first is cool, because it's one of those sciences you want anyway... and many use the Oracle to get it.

The trick is knowing what you can get away with. And sometimes, you guess wrong and pay for it

[wodan11]

Everytime I try to sneak in a religious tech, I'm praying that I don't get caught with my pants down. Yes, if you start with mysticism and you don't try for one then you wasted starting with mysticism.

That seems silly. It's just as appropriate to say "if you don't get a military tech first then you deserve to be rushed."

Frankly, I think going religious first in MP is not wise. When the game announces to all and sundry that "Buddhism was just founded in [insert your capitol name here]," you just painted a big fat bullseye on your forehead. Unless you can back it up by having an existing military, you're going down.

Ming is just saying that when you figure out who your neighbors are, you should plan accordingly.

Sure, that's obvious. Any general statements we make in respond to the OP must be taken in the context of each game. Each game must be modified by the terrain you get, the resources you find, the neighbors you have, etc.

If I start next to the egypt, I prioritize spearmen. Common sense.

Sure. And Egypt can make quite a few War Chariots before you get them. Expect to have your Copper pillaged unless you settled on it. And if you did, expect for it to be the first city conquered.

At least, if I started as Egypt, that's what I would do. Common sense.

In all seriousness, this is exactly the same as starting next to the Romans. If it's a good idea to invade the Romans before they can get Praets, then it's equally a good idea for Egypt to bull rush one or more neighbors with their early War Chariots before they can get spearmen.

The problem with many SP'ers who move to MP is that they try their normal strategy no matter what civ or land they get.

The problem with many players period is that they tend to play the same strategy all the time, I agree there.

[wodan11]

Why on earth would anyone aim for an early religion in MP? One of the biggest benefits from that, diplo from neighbors (if they don't found one themselves), is 100% negated in MP. The delayed worker techs & expansion is a big risk even in SP, I would imagine it's much more so in MP.

Aside: Egypt doing a SE doesn't need "worker techs". You already have Ag and Wheel.

This is exactly what we're talking about. What are good leaders? Well, Egypt, especially when doing SE, can go right for military techs and religious techs.

I suppose if our discussion is challenging such preconceptions, then it's a good discussion.

[slnz]

On top of those the immediate worker techs include, somewhat depending on your start, AH, Hunting, Mining and BW, of which I would guess BW is the most important (after your top food tile tech, which varies). Agri is sometimes useless, and you can't know if specialists are the most viable option before seeing the map. So not having Mining as a starting tech is sub-par in this sense. I would think Mali wins in starting techs in a strategic sense while having one of the best MP UUs.

You guys can tell me to GTFO from MP discussions if you like, btw

[rah]

You don't have to be an experienced MPer to discuss MP strategies. Hell, BK discusses sex, and relationships with women.

But Not all MP games end in the first 100 turns. In a lot of our one sitting games we'll get to turn 250 or higher, so it's not all fast rush game over. The goal is to survive the beginning (and take some one out if the opportunity presents itself) but you must worry about later. If you go to early rush and it doesn't work, or you so over expand yourself that it takes way too long for you economy recover, your 100 macemen and tribs will be slaughtered by the 50 grenadiers and cannons.

But yes, I do note who discovers bud or hind since almost always it's their cap and keep that in mind on determining who might be a good target.

When DD used to play in our games, he'd focus on wonders, why the rest of us focused on taking them from him.

A wonder or two will help the mid-game, but there is a balance.

All that said, if you go to gamespy, most players will roll the dice early and risk worker first or try to rush someone knowing if they fail they can just drop out of the game. Our games are a bit different since most players won't quit at the drop of a hat.

Or there's diplo games that are a totally different style.

[wodan11]

But Not all MP games end in the first 100 turns. In a lot of our one sitting games we'll get to turn 250 or higher, so it's not all fast rush game over. The goal is to survive the beginning (and take some one out if the opportunity presents itself) but you must worry about later. If you go to early rush and it doesn't work, or you so over expand yourself that it takes way too long for you economy recover, your 100 macemen and tribs will be slaughtered by the 50 grenadiers and cannons.

I don't disagree with any of that. Though, it sounds like you started by implying all the previous discussion is predicated upon an assumption that all games end in the first 100 turns. I don't think that is the case at all. The previous discussion applies in either case.

Whether the game ends or goes on, it is imperative to have an early military tech. In fact, I would say that is the top priority. Unless you have an isolated start, you need to have something, whether it's chariots or axes or whatever. If you don't, chances are you're going to be eliminated. Whether the game goes past 100 turns or not is moot: you're dead.

[Ming]

Nothing worse than seeing you don't have copper near by, and then discovering you have no horses either. You then pray you get to iron before somebody notices that you don't have anything yet