The mathematics of slavery/whipping

[rah]

Yes the capital is usually food rich so a good target early since you get to the happy cap so quickly.
I can't imagine not whipping to finish that first worker or settler early. Not maxing your turns early will put you behind quite quickly.

Later I'll risk the revolts to deal with conquered cities better. If spiritual it's easy to go in and out as you need it. or using golden ages.

[NFIH]

What about using slavery in situations like the following?

1.
It's somewhere in the 18th century on Epic speed. I'm Rome and I've just conquered an enemy city. The six surrounding tiles are mostly cottaged, for example. When it finishes pacifying, it needs immediate culture to expand its boundaries so as to take advantage of food sources and expand a defensive border (which also helps toward a domination victory). So I decide to build a monument or a theater. I've also decided that this city will focus on gold/science production, but it has few or no buildings post-capture. After building the monument/theater I'll want a courthouse to reduce the maintenance draining my coffers and thus slowing my war. So right away that's two buildings I absolutely need.

Trouble is, the monument/theater might require a dozen turns or more to build and the courthouse even more than that. If I want to make this city productive, isn't it pretty much a requirement that I whip to get these buildings into production sooner rather than later?

2.
Again, I'm Roman. I've got a fairly well developed city that I want to stick a forum in (this building gives +25% commerce production). It will take 20 turns to build. I can whip it for two or three pop. Another no-brainer to whip?

3.
During wars in any age I find that for the reasons mentioned in Nos. 1 and 2 above, slavery/whipping is the only way to make newly captured cities useful to either my war effort or economic strength. Otherwise, they simply take far too long to be useful and may actually be a net drain (maintenance) on my economy. In which case they should all be razed, but that leaves the problem of the enemy (or rival civs) simply plopping down new cities in the vacated space. (Not that I keep every captured city. I don't. I raze depending on placement, distance from capital, etc.)

Am I doing this wrong?

[wodan11]

What about using slavery in situations like the following?

1.
It's somewhere in the 18th century on Epic speed. I'm Rome and I've just conquered an enemy city. The six surrounding tiles are mostly cottaged, for example. When it finishes pacifying, it needs immediate culture to expand its boundaries so as to take advantage of food sources and expand a defensive border (which also helps toward a domination victory). So I decide to build a monument or a theater. I've also decided that this city will focus on gold/science production, but it has few or no buildings post-capture. After building the monument/theater I'll want a courthouse to reduce the maintenance draining my coffers and thus slowing my war. So right away that's two buildings I absolutely need.

Trouble is, the monument/theater might require a dozen turns or more to build and the courthouse even more than that. If I want to make this city productive, isn't it pretty much a requirement that I whip to get these buildings into production sooner rather than later?

What civics are you running / what wonders do you have? Anything that allows an artist or culture means you don't need the culture buildings. e.g., Caste System. So, this is moot in such cases. Simply run an artist. Heck, the governor will do this *for* you unless you specifically tell it not to.

Otherwise, consider Universal Suffrage. Much better in these cases.

If you're NOT running CS or US in the 1800s I wonder what the heck you're doing. Not giving it a crook eye because I'm all in favor of creative gameplay, so you'll have to explain the situation in more detail.

2.
Again, I'm Roman. I've got a fairly well developed city that I want to stick a forum in (this building gives +25% commerce production). It will take 20 turns to build. I can whip it for two or three pop. Another no-brainer to whip?

See above.

3.
During wars in any age I find that for the reasons mentioned in Nos. 1 and 2 above, slavery/whipping is the only way to make newly captured cities useful to either my war effort or economic strength. Otherwise, they simply take far too long to be useful and may actually be a net drain (maintenance) on my economy. In which case they should all be razed, but that leaves the problem of the enemy (or rival civs) simply plopping down new cities in the vacated space. (Not that I keep every captured city. I don't. I raze depending on placement, distance from capital, etc.)

Am I doing this wrong?

As rah said, one of the best uses of slavery is to whip newly conquered cities into shape. Otherwise, the citizens will simply starve to nothing so what's the loss? (Other than missing out on a possibly better civic choice for the rest of your empire. Frankly, your core cities are MUCH more important than these newly conquered ones. Unless you have conquered a huge number of cities, changing civics might well be cutting off your nose to spite your face. e.g., if you have a Caste specialist economy going on, and you switch to slavery just to whip in a couple of new cities... bad move. Even if it is the best choice for those couple of new cities, it's a huge negative to your core cities which are what got your empire to where it is now.)

[NFIH]

What civics are you running / what wonders do you have? Anything that allows an artist or culture means you don't need the culture buildings. e.g., Caste System. So, this is moot in such cases. Simply run an artist. Heck, the governor will do this *for* you unless you specifically tell it not to.

Otherwise, consider Universal Suffrage. Much better in these cases.

If you're NOT running CS or US in the 1800s I wonder what the heck you're doing. Not giving it a crook eye because I'm all in favor of creative gameplay, so you'll have to explain the situation in more detail.

I don't yet have access to Universal Suffrage and I also don't have the Great Pyramids. I've probably got Serfdom, Free Market, Free Religion and Hereditary Rule going as well. I have almost never run Caste System in any game I've played because I've never tried to run a specialist economy. And I've never tried a specialist economy because I find I then don't get enough of a military focus and inevitably get ganged up on by the AIs.

I do like the idea of relying on an artist specialist though. But absent of CS, that requires a building that allows such a specialist. And in newly conquered cities, nine times out of 10, such a building does not yet exist. So I'm back to the issue of needing to build that building and quickly.

As rah said, one of the best uses of slavery is to whip newly conquered cities into shape. Otherwise, the citizens will simply starve to nothing so what's the loss? (Other than missing out on a possibly better civic choice for the rest of your empire. Frankly, your core cities are MUCH more important than these newly conquered ones. Unless you have conquered a huge number of cities, changing civics might well be cutting off your nose to spite your face. e.g., if you have a Caste specialist economy going on, and you switch to slavery just to whip in a couple of new cities... bad move. Even if it is the best choice for those couple of new cities, it's a huge negative to your core cities which are what got your empire to where it is now.)

Actually, I have conquered a huge number of cities. In fact, my strategy has been to build only one or two cities (excluding cities built later on to backfill premium open spaces created by other conquests) and then conquer every other city. In which case those conquered cities are my core cities. My thinking in this case is that my core cities (only the earlier of the conquered ones) can do quite all right even if I switch to another civic (slavery) to help my newer cities get online more quickly.

I've really never considered Caste System as a useful approach. Same for pacifism, for which I see no use at all. But if you have tips on how to best use Caste system, feel free to share.

[wodan11]

I don't yet have access to Universal Suffrage and I also don't have the Great Pyramids. I've probably got Serfdom, Free Market, Free Religion and Hereditary Rule going as well. I have almost never run Caste System in any game I've played because I've never tried to run a specialist economy. And I've never tried a specialist economy because I find I then don't get enough of a military focus and inevitably get ganged up on by the AIs.

I do like the idea of relying on an artist specialist though. But absent of CS, that requires a building that allows such a specialist. And in newly conquered cities, nine times out of 10, such a building does not yet exist. So I'm back to the issue of needing to build that building and quickly.

Not necessarily... consider building the Sistine Chapel. All that it will then require is any specialist-allowing building to survive the city capture. Anything from a market to a forge.

Actually, I have conquered a huge number of cities. In fact, my strategy has been to build only one or two cities (excluding cities built later on to backfill premium open spaces created by other conquests) and then conquer every other city. In which case those conquered cities are my core cities. My thinking in this case is that my core cities (only the earlier of the conquered ones) can do quite all right even if I switch to another civic (slavery) to help my newer cities get online more quickly.

I would think Slavery would be an excellent choice for you in such a situation.

I've really never considered Caste System as a useful approach. Same for pacifism, for which I see no use at all. But if you have tips on how to best use Caste system, feel free to share.

I suspect you always play the same "kind" of game every time. Try playing a game with the express intent to use and abuse Caste System. Purposefully don't do the things you "always" do in order to do the things to get the most from CS.

We could talk for hours about CS or Pacifism if that's what you want. That's not the intent of this thread though so you might want to start another.

[slnz]

Note that if you have researched Music (which at least should have happened by the 18th century) you can build culture for the border pop. You can even queue this in the build queue and the culture building will stop once the borders pop and the city will continue at the next building in queue. This is a LOT faster than building culture buildings if you simply need to pop the borders. (Sorry if someone mentioned this already and I missed it)

[NFIH]

I suspect you always play the same "kind" of game every time. Try playing a game with the express intent to use and abuse Caste System. Purposefully don't do the things you "always" do in order to do the things to get the most from CS.

We could talk for hours about CS or Pacifism if that's what you want. That's not the intent of this thread though so you might want to start another.

Lately, yes, you're correct--I do play the same way, largely because they've all been domination/conquest attempts. However, I have tried other approaches in the past, but I'm invariably invaded with overwhelming force, often by multiple AIs at a time. I have yet to figure out what is the optimal military force to deter attack, yet still leave me with the resources to pursue a (almost) purely peaceful-type victory.

One thing I should mention about how I use slavery: My own rule is that I don't whip until the cost is 2 pop and never before any previous slavery-induced happiness has worn off, except in an emergency. This allows me to minimize pop loss (and its effects) but still finish a given item as much as 20 turns faster. I find that with two pop I can usually just go in an rearrange the worked tiles so that the impact on commerce or production *seems* to be quite minimal.

Does that sound like a decent approach?

[NFIH]

Note that if you have researched Music (which at least should have happened by the 18th century) you can build culture for the border pop. You can even queue this in the build queue and the culture building will stop once the borders pop and the city will continue at the next building in queue. This is a LOT faster than building culture buildings if you simply need to pop the borders. (Sorry if someone mentioned this already and I missed it)

Thank-you! I had forgotten about building culture in newly captured cities as an option, and did not know at all that a queued building resumes production once the borders pop.

[slnz]

Another piece of lategame slave-powered warmongering trivia that might not be evident to everybody: The Kremlin also reduces whipping costs, so Communism is doubly useful in these kind of domination games.

[trev]

One situation where I will often use whipping is soon after Code of laws is learnt, particularly if I have been to war and have conquered a fair number of cities. I need courthouses quickly to get economy functioning better and the espionage bonus is useful as well. In this situation I will also often whip marketplaces, especially if fur is availabel as that assists happiness.

[wodan11]

One situation where I will often use whipping is soon after Code of laws is learnt, particularly if I have been to war and have conquered a fair number of cities. I need courthouses quickly to get economy functioning better and the espionage bonus is useful as well. In this situation I will also often whip marketplaces, especially if fur is availabel as that assists happiness.

Excellent point. As I said earlier, it's simply a comparison of costs vs benefit. However, on both sides... costs and benefits... we have to consider the time aspect. It's not just X citizens no longer working Towns for Y turns, it's also Z turns of Courthouse benefit. This is a great example because it shows the "second level" of analysis on both sides. And, it's a direct mathematical comparison so it's not really subject to argument. (Which isn't always true... some benefits or costs are more ambiguous.)

[rah]

One situation where I will often use whipping is soon after Code of laws is learnt, particularly if I have been to war and have conquered a fair number of cities. I need courthouses quickly to get economy functioning better and the espionage bonus is useful as well. In this situation I will also often whip marketplaces, especially if fur is availabel as that assists happiness.

AMEN brother.

[Blaupanzer]

Great thread!

Whipping in war is a no brainer at least until Nationalism. Courthouses, markets, and grocers CAN pay for the whipping costs mostly in the time needed to recover the pop. Other items are more ambiguous. I usually switch to Caste System once I have CoL and Monarchy, since I don't have such sharp happiness limits on pop.

Anyone playing as Montezuma should switch in and out of Slavery all game with those magnificent courthouse substitutes to limit unhappiness. Spiritual with those courthouses is a magnificent combination.

We had a rather brilliantly devised thread at one time (related to Civ III IIRC) that provided methods to calculate value gained vs lost related to whipping buildings. It accounted for the turns remaining to growth, the benefit of the building for the turns of earliness, the value of the citizens for the turns lost, and the tradeoff if any for the marginal limits placed on happiness. Snoopy369 would remember most likely -- does he still come around?

[rah]

He sits next to me at work, but he's here less during the day because I don't think he want his boss looking over his shoulder while he posts here.

[NFIH]

One situation where I will often use whipping is soon after Code of laws is learnt, particularly if I have been to war and have conquered a fair number of cities. I need courthouses quickly to get economy functioning better and the espionage bonus is useful as well. In this situation I will also often whip marketplaces, especially if fur is availabel as that assists happiness.

I do this as well. As soon as I get CoL, I queue a courthouse in every city, even above whatever else is building and then whip it if it will cost three or less pop. Works out well and, if I'm in the middle of a war, is pretty much essential.