Metaliturtle's Strategy Thread

[wodan11]

Your unasserted claims. Pot, Kettle?

Okay, one at a time:

The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

That is a proverb. You're really stretching if this is the best you can find.

Not growing your cities is a serious negative.

Correct. If you disagree, then I'd be glad to set up a game for you where you have 0 net food no matter what you do. You seem to like examples.

OTOH you're growing while you build the boat, and once it's done you're making the worker faster than your size 1 city AND you're getting 2 or 3 commerce all the while.

What's the question here? Are you disagreeing that a size 2 city working a netted resource and one other tile will build a worker faster than a size 1 city working an unimproved tile? Or are you disagreeing that coast tiles give commerce?

Hunh. I find they "get going" faster than land spots.

That is personal experience, not a claim. Again, you're really stretching.

This is akin to you saying "I find that Grasslands > Coast" rather than simply "Grasslands > Coast." See the difference? One is leaving open the possibility of different viewpoint and discussion of the two, while the other is speaking from a position of authority.

I guess I'll just try to confine my responses to people who are interested in discussing from other than a position of authority and are willing to engage in an honest discussion based on the merits of different viewpoints.

[Arrian]

Depends on the mapscipt. Most mapscripts are designed to give the starting position fresh water. That means either a lake or a river. Furthermore, many mapscipts are designed to give a river (not a lake).

To answer your question, I would say "always" but I won't rule out it hasn't ever happened or won't ever happen.

Very different experience to mine.

I've specified the map script I use, and the settings. On those settings, over the course of hundreds of games, I have found that coastal starts are mainly on lakes, very short rivers, or lack fresh water altogether. Further, many times I get coastal starts that have oodles and oodles of food (multiple seafood resources) but are quite hammer poor (little to no hills, mostly grassland forest). I need hammers, I need them fairly early, and I need them w/o chopping.

I will say this one last time: I am not asserting that inland starts > coastal starts. I am saying I prefer inland starts, for specific reasons. One reason I haven't mentioned yet is maintainence - an inland start is typically (though not always) more central.

"River grasslands > coast".

Starting value: 2f, 0h, 1c as against 1f, 0h, 2c (with fishing). You can farm or cottage river grass very early in the game, later you can build workshops & waterwheels. Also, in the industrial era there is the levee. Improvements for coast tiles are lighthouse (+1 food/tile, available with sailing), the Colossus (+1 commerce per coastal tile, empire-wide until Astronomy, requires forge) and the M. Statues (+1 hammer per coastal tile in 1 city, requires... masonry?). Obviously being on the coast gives you a boost to trade routes, which is nice.

The river grassland is more flexible, and a cottaged river grass ends up blowing away a coastal tile, though that does take time to develop. The coastal tile basically doesn't develop after sailing. From a "fast start" perspective, I still prefer river grass b/c of the flexibility. From a long-term perspective, it's not even close IMO.

-Arrian

[Krill]

What's the question here? Are you disagreeing that a size 2 city working a netted resource and one other tile will build a worker faster than a size 1 city working an unimproved tile? Or are you disagreeing that coast tiles give commerce?

Stop being retarded.

You are claiming that a city that has an extra 22 food in the form of a second pop point and a 30 hammer workboat can produce a worker faster than a city at size 1 city with 0 improvemnets. If you want to start the race at that point, fair enough, but it is competely bollocks. If you hadn't built the workboat or grown, you would be 8 food from a worker at that point, so 2 turns later, you'd have a worker, so from building the worker at size 1 you get x amount of extra worker turns.

The ideal coastal start, on stone/marble plains hill, adjacent to both a plains hill forest and coastal fish, starting with fishing, gets the fish netted t5, and the worker finished at t12, compared to going worker first which gets the worker done t10; in this case, those extra 2 worker turns are definately not worth not going workboat first.

The worst coastal start is on a 1 hammer tile, ocean clams/crabs that are 1 turn away from the city so they are only netted the turn after the wb is finished, no fishing, and irrigated corn. If there are no 2 production tiles, then if fishing takes 6 turns, it would take until t17 to get the wb out, t18 crabs are hooked and a worker t27, corn hooked t31, city at size 4, and 11 production in a warrior and the early production is either wasted or the wb is pushed back later and everything happens on a later turn, so the exploration better be worth it).

Going worker first would have the worker t15, with enough time to go agri>fishing and start the wb after the worker is built on anything up to monarch. With the corn improved t19, it has 11 turns of working an improved corn over getting the wb, leading to size 4, 17 food, 9 production, and identical commerce.

If there are any other land based resources, going worker first wins out in this scenario.



So basically, you're wrong, and either intellectually dishonest or stupid. Which one is it?

[Metaliturtle]

To clarify for discussion on Opening strategy.

The term "Faster" should be viewed as 'fewest turns from 4000bc'

for example: We understand that a larger city makes a worker in less turns than a smaller city, but starting from turn one, the city that starts building a worker right away will have the worker faster than the city that grows to size 2 and builds a worker at that point all other variables being equal.

[Robert]

No personal attacks please.
Discuss the topic.

[Jaybe]

Re usual starting locations, one must keep in mind the difficulty level you are playing. iStartingLocPercent in HandicapInfo.xml can vary from 10 at Settler to 90 at Diety, being 40 at Noble.

If you want to moderate a high difficulty, "adjusting" iStartingLocPercent can be a potent solution.

[joncnunn]

What exactly does iStartingLocPercent control? I assume it has something to do with starting locations, and somehow a higher number is better for the AI, but I don't know what it actually does.

Re usual starting locations, one must keep in mind the difficulty level you are playing. iStartingLocPercent in HandicapInfo.xml can vary from 10 at Settler to 90 at Diety, being 40 at Noble.

If you want to moderate a high difficulty, "adjusting" iStartingLocPercent can be a potent solution.

[Jaybe]

What exactly does iStartingLocPercent control? I assume it has something to do with starting locations, and somehow a higher number is better for the AI, but I don't know what it actually does.

I don't KNOW, but it seems to affect the ORDER of the civs' placement on the map.

Or I could put it this way: Since I changed it for me to 10, my starting positions have been quite fine.

[joncnunn]

As in better than all the AIs starting locations?
If so that sounds like you've over corrected.
I'm going to try 50.

I don't KNOW, but it seems to affect the ORDER of the civs' placement on the map.

Or I could put it this way: Since I changed it for me to 10, my starting positions have been quite fine.

[joncnunn]

Ran a test; I'm seeing a significant improvement in the quality of my starting lands just changing the Monarch value of 60 down to the Prince value of 50.

This was on Big & Small, Huge map epic time scale, custom to 12 civs (instead of 11), Monarch level as Isabella, random opponents. Choose Religion on. Rest of settings won't matter for the test.

On 60: Attempts to found Meditation or Polytheism religion: 0 for 6. (3 different maps; reset to 4000 BC choosing the other religion founding tech on the first failure on each map)

On 50: Attempts to found Polytheism religion: 1 for 1. And I got it one turn before some Civ that likes Confucism founded the Mediation one.

[Jaybe]

Sorry joncnunn, what I was thinking was the BFC of the founding city area only. I wasn't considering the whole countryside (3-6 cities worth). For instance, I may still have to really struggle to access copper/iron, though marble (along with 2-4 food resources) is usually close by.

In my games, the iStartingLocPercent = 10.
The early game is where I need the advantages. I give them to the AI as the game progresses (e.g., with iAIPerEraModifier).

To me, founding religions is a real non sequitur. Then again, the only one I ever pursue is Confucianism.

[joncnunn]

Um, in all my tests above I only have one city throughout the research of the first tech; so those were a test of (part of) the starting area.

It's quite a bit easier to tell if someone else has a religion tech than anything else for their first tech. Also note that I was playing a civ that starts with Mystism in my tests. Without Mystism, I have a much lower priority for founding ultra early religions. (But at the moment I'm playing all the civs that start with Mystism one by one [except for the Aztecs]).

[sorinache]

Um, in all my tests above I only have one city throughout the research of the first tech; so those were a test of (part of) the starting area.

It's quite a bit easier to tell if someone else has a religion tech than anything else for their first tech. Also note that I was playing a civ that starts with Mystism in my tests. Without Mystism, I have a much lower priority for founding ultra early religions. (But at the moment I'm playing all the civs that start with Mystism one by one [except for the Aztecs]).

I've just started a game as Emperor Hannibal of the Carthaginians - I didn't start with Mysticism yet I somehow managed to found Hinduism despite having Moussa (Mali) and Huyana (Inca) in the game. I was quite surprised

[Theben]

As good as any place to mention it...

Happy Birthday, Metaliturtle!!

[Metaliturtle]

thanks!