Ok, so I'm dead - where's the fun ?

[ZEE]

for any other lack of a place to put this, and me not wanting to make a new thrade, let me say how much i despise the vassalage system by how unfun, simplistic, and redundant it has made the industrial age to endgame. When i hit industrial and like 2 civs (including including me) already control all the others through vassalage (even with 18 civs) i normally just quit. Even Wolfshanze's mod cant cover up the broken Vassalage system in the Industrial ages. Cant polish a turd, bro.

there i feel better.

[Theben]

I will say it's unrealistic. I would think that a civ would have to have to be in Monarchy or Vassalage civic- or at least not in Emancipation- to have vassals. But it does on occasion make for an interesting game, like recently when I was alone again on a continent and finally found the other civs. Egypt had its own continent also but everyone else was on a HUGE continent directly to my north... and east, and northwest. Everyone was a vassal of Genghis Khan. I had a small tech lead, but was dreading them discovering Astronomy. Haven't finished it, don't know if I will. Was debating between sending a huge force to take out Egypt while weak or putting together a force to knock down the Mongols and hurrying up the inevitable, in hopes of freeing up some vassals.

[ZEE]

the only reason to have Vassalage on is to get cheap DOM victories and to counter the ridiculous overseas maintenance handicap.

[Theben]

the only reason to have Vassalage on is to get cheap DOM victories and to counter the ridiculous overseas maintenance handicap.

Ahem... State Property. Nuf said.

[ZEE]

my favorite Civic... Along with Organized my favorite trait

never playing with Vassalage on evar again tho. A Man's Game.

[Theben]

Since I rarely vassalize opponents it helps the AI more.

[Lord Avalon]

Cant polish a turd, bro.

Actually, Mythbusters showed you can. [/OT]

[clarkcd]

It's a dorodango!

[sorinache]

hmm, something must be wrong then ...

One of the major items added to BtS was spies and spying. You need to accumulate a certain number of spy points against a civ before you can see their graphs / demographics. Check Ctrl-E to see how you are allocating your spy points and what levels you need to reach to see the demographics, the tech they are researching, etc.

Hmmm, the "Espionnage screen" shows that I accumulated enough espionnage points toward Isabella to see her demos ... yet on the info screen I only see my graph and Hannibal's. Might be because I started this game using BtS 3.0.0 and patched to 3.0.17 only midway through the game ?

I know I'm third from the bottom in power because I retired - then I got to see all the other graphs.

[sorinache]

BTW I said F8, it's F9 (to see the wonder screen which tells you which civ has built a specific wonder such as the AP)

Very apt quote, Lord Avalon.

sorinache, the power graph I think *is* F8, then on the upper left you can change a drop down between things like gold, power, culture, etc. Power is basically a formula which says how strong their military is. The AI definitely uses that to decide when to wage war.

Yes, I suspected this from watching how my Civ IV vanilla games were unraveling

(Except an AP war, which I'm beginning to suspect is the case here.) If you're low on the Power graph compared to an AI, they will be more likely to DOW you. *BUT* that is only going to be 1 or 2 AIs at most, not ALL of them as you experienced here.

You should be able to see the Power graph of ANYBODY you have contact with (regardless of Espionage, and please ignore the Ferengi in the gorilla suit in the corner).

Hmmm, I might have a bug here, I'll check closer

Honestly, to wage war in CIV, you can ignore her fleet totally. Once you are able to defeat her land army, THEN you can focus on fighting on sea.

Sea power in CIV can hurt because they can kill your sea health resources, and they can blockade you (which costs commerce, which is a "hidden" cost). However, the real penalty is if you lose a city. Losing a city hurts bad because it immediately blows up all the buildings that produce culture, which can be a huge amount of lost hammers even if you retake the city later. Clearly, losing the city also loses you the commerce and hammers that city is producing for your empire.

So, protect the land at all costs. Even if you have totally give up the sea.

good luck.

Well, I beg to differ on this one - I'm playing archipelago and their unit-pumping cities are on a far away land-mass - they'll need to come by sea. If I manage to keep superiority at sea, they won't be able to land, so I won't need (that many) land units.

I reloaded a save from 1810, researched a couple more techs then switched to Theocracy. In the meanwhile Isabella came to me twice with demands : she wanted my money first, then Electricity. Since you told me that my chances to keep her happy are slim anyway, I sent her packing. She declared war on me as usual, along with her vassal and got her chums the Germans and their vassals to declare as well. I'm in 1860 now, just buil my first tank (best defence is still the offence) and trying to keep her minions from landing : I have (until now, 1860) 11 destroyers and 7 airships and sent her first landing party to plow the sea depths (6 destroyers, 2 transports fully loaded). I got a Great General for this, too (90 XP accumulated I believe)

Question : how do I get another Great general ? How many XP for the next one ? I like the "military academy" feature (any hammer is wellcome). Thanks in advance

[Boracks]

F5, down at the bottom left is bar showing progress to a great general, hold the mouse over it to see the actual numbers, each one costs more xp.

[#07]

Actually, you still need enough espionage points to see everyones power graph. Either that, or I've got sorinache's bug aswell

[Sarco]

Yes, I can't see everyones power graphs either.

[sorinache]

Replaying from 1810 - conclusion

So I carried out my plan with a replay from an older save (1810). By 1846 I was at war with Isabella and her vassal Ragnar, as well as with her chums Bismark and his vassal Justinian. Having switched to Theocracy around 1830, I had just enough time to build a decent fleet of capable destroyers (I'm playing archipelago, so mastering the seas is key). At least this time the Koreans, Egyptians, Dutch, Zulus did not declare war on me - my newly minted destroyers might have played a part here ... Not only that, but in exchange for a tech, I got my neighbors the Carthaginians to join me against Isabella !
That was totally relieving : the Carthaginians have (had ?) a huge army next to my empire (and nothing to do with it).

After dispatching the first spanish invasion party to the sea depths (only 4 destroyers and 2 troop transports) I kept churning out destroyers and then battleships and massing them to the focal point of our conflict (a tiny, icy island where we both had a city). Around 1876 her main landing party was spotted at sea by an airship : 7 destroyers, 4 troop transports (fully loaded I suspect). I managed to sink them all (losing only 2 destroyers). Conquered her small city, too. That did it : she accepted my offer for peace. The germans took my peace offer instantly as well (they were even further away and had only sent one destroyer in my waters, quickly sunk by my fleet).

I switched back to pacifism (love the GPs) and tuned down military production (only one city keeps pumping out vessels every two turns, instead of three). We are now in 1902, Hannibal is still at war with Isabella (no city changed hands yet from what I've seen) which is great and I have some hope I'll manage to build my first world wonder (not counting a corporation and three great shrines), Hollywood (I've been beaten to all the others by those cheater AIs). Since now I have an army, I guess I'll try to use it and go after an AI Civ or two (the Dutch and the Zulus make good candidates) ...

I guess the conclusion to this thread would be : if one wants to play pacifically as a builder, then it needs to choose the right option at start (permanent peace), otherwise one needs to better balance civilian and military building than I did the first time around ... which is only fair, I guess, since we are talking about "emperor" difficulty level ...

[rjmatsleepers]

I guess the conclusion to this thread would be : if one wants to play pacifically as a builder, then it needs to choose the right option at start (permanent peace), otherwise one needs to better balance civilian and military building than I did the first time around ... which is only fair, I guess, since we are talking about "emperor" difficulty level ...

You can win at Emperor as a peaceful builder without resorting to permanent peace, but you will not be able to ignore the military side. The chances of going a complete game without being attacked are low. The key is to be ready, so that when you are attacked, it is not fatal. There are lots of good tips in this thread and I suspect that simply by replaying you have already learned a few of them.

RJM