Ok, so I'm dead - where's the fun ?

[sorinache]

I've just retired in disgust from my first BtS game. Year was 1854 and suddenly, out of the blue and with no warning, almost everybody declared war on me ... even guys that were pleased with me the previous turn, even meek ai civs on which I'd lavished old tech to help them through ...

The story so far : I'm a veteran Civ I and II player (where my score went so high as to overflow its alloted space on Deity, of course, like for everybody else on this forum I guess). I played a little Civ III but didn't like it - it felt like someone programmed the game to get revenge for those scoring buffer overflows in Civ II, not to provide the player with fun.

I recently started playing Civ IV (yes, I waited till the "Civ IV Complete" sold for 9.99€, shame on me ...). Read the ending chapter of the manual where the designer (Sorensen ? forgot his name) explained that he wanted to make a game that was as much fun to play as Civ I and II and thought "ah ! this guy really got it ! he really aimed at the best design goal he could have : provide the players with FUN !". Made my way up winning a game on noble, prince, monarch and finally emperor. These games were all a lot of fun, to the point where I chose to replay my "emperor" game almost from the beginning, to try another strategy.

Decided to go for BtS then and so started my game as Elizabeth of the English on "emperor" level as well, "archipelago" map. Everything was going on just fine - I was sure I was not going to win the game, I had built too few cities with too little production capacity - I could not have won as I usually aim to do, via the space race and didn't feel like trying a "cultural victory", it involves too much focus on culture enhancement things. Besides, I somehow managed to not build ANY world wonder (AI civ always built them before I could finish). I strived to be a middling power all along - not the last one in power (though given the AI bonuses on emperor, I couldn't do better than third from the bottom), not the first one in the other areas. Cruising happily along, exploring the game, trying to have fun as a builder, not treading on anyone's toes.

I had Hannibal on the same land mass (man, has he an army !!!) and a Korean city (far on a tip of our island). The Spaniards were first in the rankings all along, first in tech as well. Bismark was second (he spawned Bizantium as a vassal colony at some point, an interesting new feature I didn't explored yet). Hannibal and the Koreans were jostling for third and fourth. When we entered the "astronomy" epoch and I made contact with all the other civs I was placed fifth, scoring better than Hatchepsout, the Dutch, Shaka and Ragnar (and of course Justinien). During the following centuries I slowly made my way up to third place, mostly by researching techs faster than Hannibal and the Koreans. I remained fifth on the power graph, with an army slightly stronger than the Egyptians. I try to trade with as many civs as possible and my diplomatic status with them varies from -2 and annoyed ("you traded with our worst ennemy !") to +2 and pleased.

Then, in 1854, for no apparent reason, Isabella breaks all the deals she had with me and declares war. My first question is "why me ?". She's pretty far and as far as I can see has nothing to gain from a war with me. Why not attack the Koreans, with who she has border tensions ? I think I can cope though, although she has all the newest military techs and she runs a powerhouse of a civ. Ragnar, who's been her vassal for a while duly follows suit, but he's puny. Ok, fine, so far so good. But then in 1856 Bismark and his vassal Justinien also renege on all our deals and declares war on me, on behalf he's chummy with Isabella. To my huge surprise, the same turn, the Koreans AND the Dutch AND the Zulus AND the Egyptians, who are the other guys "worst ennemies" and have had lots of trade deals with me for a while ALSO declare war on me ! Why on Earth ? What have I done to deserve this ? Basically, the only Civ that hasn't declared war on me in 1856 (might yet have done so if I kept playing a while longer) were my neighbors, the Carthaginians, who could have also easily wiped me out if they wanted to.

So, what's the deal ? Where's the fun the designer was talking about when all the AI Civs are ganging up on you with no warning and for no reason ?

Comments wellcome

[CerberusIV]

This happens. The AI's do it to each other, not just to the human player.

Basically Isabella declared war on you because either she is stronger, you have a different religion to her (that always sets her off) or both. Then she bribed Bismarck to join in. After that the other AI's either were bought or scented an opportunity to dogpile someone whose back was against the wall.

You need to head off this kind of situation arising. It helps to have a few really reliable friends - same religion and mutual defence pacts if you have researched Nationalism.

Be stronger - war and expand yourself.

Play a custom game and set "Aggressive AI". Sounds strange I know but this causes them to war more with each other and burn up the excess military units they crank out with their advantages.

You could also turn off "Tech brokering" which means civs can only trade techs they have discovered themselves and tones down the tech whoring the AI's are prone to and gives you a better chance of being up to date with your military (if you have advanced units and they don't they will appear more powerful due to numbers and will think they are more powerful but are really just targets waiting to be slaughtered).

[wodan11]

Do you have the patch installed? The base game has some screwy AI routines which they fixed. You probably should get the unofficial patch as well.

Or, play Wolfshanze's mod, it has both the official and unofficial patches incorporated.

[sorinache]

This happens. The AI's do it to each other, not just to the human player.

Basically Isabella declared war on you because either she is stronger, you have a different religion to her (that always sets her off) or both. Then she bribed Bismarck to join in. After that the other AI's either were bought or scented an opportunity to dogpile someone whose back was against the wall.

You need to head off this kind of situation arising. It helps to have a few really reliable friends - same religion and mutual defence pacts if you have researched Nationalism.

Be stronger - war and expand yourself.

Play a custom game and set "Aggressive AI". Sounds strange I know but this causes them to war more with each other and burn up the excess military units they crank out with their advantages.

You could also turn off "Tech brokering" which means civs can only trade techs they have discovered themselves and tones down the tech whoring the AI's are prone to and gives you a better chance of being up to date with your military (if you have advanced units and they don't they will appear more powerful due to numbers and will think they are more powerful but are really just targets waiting to be slaughtered).

The AI do it to each other ? Meaning "ganging-up all on one" ? Sounds like a pretty "un-fun" and unfair and un-sport AI routine ... My mom told me never to play that way since I was a toddler ... Who's the wacko who programmed the AI that way ?

Yes, Isabella is definitely stronger, but she's stronger than everyone else on the map and has no particular reason to slither MY throat rather than going for the Koreans or almost anybody else - we are, like, in different hemispheres !

Yes, I do have a different religion to her but I can hardly help here : she founded Buddhism and took it up as her state religion while I don't have any city with Buddhism ! Even if I wanted to, I can't convert to Buddhism.

The other ai civs scented an opportunity ? The only one for which there is a true opportunity is Hannibal, who is the only one NOT to have declared war on me ... otoh, I had like four mutually beneficial trade deals with the egyptians (giving them gems, iron, rice in exchange for corn, sheep, sugar, plus open borders) and they considered the Spaniards "worst ennemies" yet they still declared war on me ... for basically no prospective gain, we are on a big world and their civ is far, far away from mine.

I'll consider reloading and trying to see whether any worthwhile AI would accept a defense pact ...

I've installed the 3.17 patch yesterday (thus it was in mid game). I don't know how far in advance the AI decisions are calculated, maybe Isabella was already preparing to go to war since before the 3.17 patch and patching had no effect ? Sounds wacky ...

[snoopy369]

The AI decisions certainly are made in advance (around 20 or so turns in advance, for a war declaration, so they have time to gear up and such).

Basically, the AI gangs up on you either because you are too strong (and several AIs need to gang up on you to give you any challenge), or because you are too weak (and several AIs want your stuff). The religion also contributes a lot to it; if you are having trouble with AI's it helps a lot to have their religion (there are ways to deal with this, like setting up a city with no religion, and not connecting it to your territory, but connecting it to a Buddhist's territory); and do you have open borders with them? It would surprise me greatly if you never got the religion but had open borders and trade connections.

Secondly, the AI gang up on you because you are better able to fight a war than the AI. You probably haven't played enough to learn how yet, but just have a few more games of this, and you'll learn. You should not expect to win a game of Civ on your first try, after all ... I didn't win one (of Civ4) for my first five or six tries, and I've been playing Civ since you were in diapers, probably literally. Fighting multiple AI is complicated, but winnable, even with significant power disparities; lots of catapults/cannons/artillery helps a lot, and waiting for the AI to bring in a stack of units and then just slaughtering that stack, using your roads/railroads, helps even more. (That's just as true with humans as with AI, by the way.)

I would suggest you start a new game, and learn from your mistakes in this - Civ is a strategy game, and that's the one kind of game where you shouldn't expect to win every time you play...

[Ming]

Decided to go for BtS then and so started my game as Elizabeth of the English on "emperor" level as well, "archipelago" map.

Emperor level is pretty aggressive for your first game. Unlike some of the past Civ games where we could all just romp through a game at the highest difficulty level, Civ IV isn't like that. The higher difficulty levels are REALLY HARD. Try starting a game at noble (this is the break even setting with the AI getting no real advantages) so that you can get a better feel for the game before trying the much harders levels.

[snoopy369]

I would reemphasize that as well - and even if you've played Civ4 vanilla before (as it looks like from your other posts), BtS is MUCH more difficult than Vanilla because it has much better AI's, particularly on the war front - the AI tends to be more aggressive, and is quicker to jump on your mistakes.

[sorinache]

The AI decisions certainly are made in advance (around 20 or so turns in advance, for a war declaration, so they have time to gear up and such).

Basically, the AI gangs up on you either because you are too strong (and several AIs need to gang up on you to give you any challenge), or because you are too weak (and several AIs want your stuff). The religion also contributes a lot to it; if you are having trouble with AI's it helps a lot to have their religion (there are ways to deal with this, like setting up a city with no religion, and not connecting it to your territory, but connecting it to a Buddhist's territory); and do you have open borders with them? It would surprise me greatly if you never got the religion but had open borders and trade connections.

Secondly, the AI gang up on you because you are better able to fight a war than the AI. You probably haven't played enough to learn how yet, but just have a few more games of this, and you'll learn. You should not expect to win a game of Civ on your first try, after all ... I didn't win one (of Civ4) for my first five or six tries, and I've been playing Civ since you were in diapers, probably literally. Fighting multiple AI is complicated, but winnable, even with significant power disparities; lots of catapults/cannons/artillery helps a lot, and waiting for the AI to bring in a stack of units and then just slaughtering that stack, using your roads/railroads, helps even more. (That's just as true with humans as with AI, by the way.)

I would suggest you start a new game, and learn from your mistakes in this - Civ is a strategy game, and that's the one kind of game where you shouldn't expect to win every time you play...

This is exactly why I tried to be "middle of the road" - neither too strong, nor too weak. For the religion topic - I founded Hindu., Juda. and Christ., built the three great shrines and am actively propagating them in each and every city of mine. Since all my cities have 3 religions from the beginning, maybe this is why buddhism never caught on despite my open-borders with Isabella. I expand very slowly - by the time I have enough spare hammers to expand overseas all the places that fit your description are already occupied. Also, on archipelago, I'm always connected with my other cities via the ocean.

As for the age - when the original Sid Meier's Civilization came out I was already in college and I started playing the next year (it was '92 or '93, don't remember exactly) . Not even the original Civilization board-game by Avalon Hill was around when I was in diapers, so it's not like I was a complete newcomer. As I was saying, I played Civ IV on noble, prince and monarch first, winning each time, before playing emperor twice (same game, first time I lost the space race by a whisker, second time I won). Then started BtS on Emperor as well. Might need to scale back a bit.

I think I'll start by reloading around 1830 and trying a "stick and carrot" approach : cranking out as many destroyers as I can while at the same time adopting the exact same civics as Isabella to make her happy (except for state religion since I don't have buddhism ...). If that doesn't work, I'll restart from 3860 BC and try to expand differently

[wodan11]

Try spreading your state religion to one or more AIs, and asking them to convert.

Alternately, make your state religion to be a religion founded by an AI, even if you founded some religions yourself

I also agree with backing off of Emperor level. You might even want to back off of Noble and go the one below that.

[sorinache]

Try spreading your state religion to one or more AIs, and asking them to convert.

Alternately, make your state religion to be a religion founded by an AI, even if you founded some religions yourself

I also agree with backing off of Emperor level. You might even want to back off of Noble and go the one below that.

Believe it or not, I have 11 cities, all 11 of which have EXACTLY 3 religions, the ones I founded, and NO OTHER religion. Correct me if I'm wrong but I can't get an AI religion by myself, can I ? I f they don't spread it, that's just tough luck. And NO, I can't capture a spanish city, if I were strong enough to do that I wouldn't need to, would I ?

[sorinache]

Try spreading your state religion to one or more AIs, and asking them to convert.

I also agree with backing off of Emperor level. You might even want to back off of Noble and go the one below that.

My religions are widely spread. In the end game I usually run "free religion" (although now I'm in pacifism). I'll try asking the other guys to convert (hannibal and wong basically). But usually they demand something in return. I certainly won't share assembly line with them.

Hmmm, so I should back from emperor to chieftain because I suspect I can't head off a DoW by 8 other Civs ? ... Hmmmm....

[rah]

As stated, build a disposable city and don't give it a religion. If you're on the same land mass and have open borders I would bet in less than ten turns that city will have a religion. You already having 3 religions and their shrines does stack the odds that one of those religions would spread to that city before a single specific one would but what the heck. (and once a city has a religion it's less likely that another one will srpead to it passively) The AI's aggressively builds missionaries. (which is why if you're on the same land mass it's more likely)

Or I'm sure that there is at least one non-spanish cities somewhere that has that religion that you might be able to conquer without starting the big war you're trying to avoid.

And yeah, if you have aggressive AI turned on, emperor can be nasty.

[Willem]

Emperor level is pretty aggressive for your first game. Unlike some of the past Civ games where we could all just romp through a game at the highest difficulty level, Civ IV isn't like that. The higher difficulty levels are REALLY HARD. Try starting a game at noble (this is the break even setting with the AI getting no real advantages) so that you can get a better feel for the game before trying the much harders levels.

Yeah really. If you're jumping in at Emperor level, you're just asking to get frustrated. Those levels are meant for people who have mastered the game and are finding things a bit boring. If you're familiar with previous Civ games then Noble would certainly be a good place to start. Even that level can be a challenge if you try and play more than just a war monger type of game.

[joncnunn]

In Civ II, Monarch was the equal level, and Emperor was one level above it.
In Civ IV, Noble is the equal level, Emperor is higher than I feel comfortable with in Civ IV ; I normally play Monarch level in Civ IV.

I also noted though it was Isabella, she's one of the AIs in which the choice is usually war now or war later. If she's not a peaceful vassal of you shortly after Feudalism and she's on your landmass, chances are at some point she will attack you.

[Ming]

Another tip is to watch for signs of war. As mentioned, the AI makes the decision to go to war with you long before they actually declare war. For example, if you notice that all of the border cities of your "friend" go from having 2 troops to 30 troops, it's usually a good sign that the AI is going to invade. Always take a look every turn at your borders and see if any unusual troop activity is occuring.