War Elephants

[joncnunn]

It's been so long since I've had early enough access to Ivory that I don't miss War Elephants. In my current game I'm playing Khmer and was unable to build my UU for lack of Ivory. (I acquired some after I had Military Tradition & Rifling).

I've never played Egypt or Persia in BTS. I've played and won with Pascal though; I didn't actually build Pascal's UU in that game.

I have successfully Chariot rushed an opponent (as the Dutch).

War Elephants: they're good, yeah, but they're not so good that I miss them when I don't have ivory. I feel like restarting if I lack horses, or if I lack both copper & iron. Granted, I've never faced Survivorman's Ballistas.

...

War Chariots and Immortals absolutely ROCK, if you get them out early enough. Regular chariots aren't as good, obviously, but they're still useful. Once the spears show up, it's all over of course. ****ing Pacal...

Immortals: 4str, 2 moves, +50% vs. archers, +100% attack vs axeman, get defensive bonuses & can fortify.

War Chariots: 5 str, 2 moves, +100% attack vs. archers.

They're 30 hammers a pop and all you need are horses and The Wheel.

Egypt starts with The Wheel. Research AH. If you have horsies near, you're in business. Persia doesn't start w/the Wheel, so you have two techs to research. But you have a scout, which can help you find horses, might pop tech from huts, and will locate your target(s). And you get to use Darius, who is the #1 leader in the game for dealing with the economic cost of a far-flung empire.

Try it. You might like it... [/pusher]

-Arrian

[Blaupanzer]

Pacal's unit is a no-resource-required spearman. Why wouldn't you build that? When I have played him they start being built as soon as I get bronze working.

[Ming]

But remember you also need hunting.
I've rarely played Pacal... so I had forgotten all about not needing copper to build Holkans. I had him in a recent MP game (random civs) and was quite pleased when I discovered I had no copper near by, but could still build Holkans. Especially since the eqyptians were next door to me.

[Theben]

They're also immune to 1st strikes, which can be helpful against archers.

[joncnunn]

Well, I've never built Spears and only build a few Pikes; the maps I play are spread out enough that even the most aggressive AI isn't going to try to Chariot or Horse Archer rush.

I've almost never seen an non Barb AI do anything with archers other than defend cities / escort settlers.

Also, I just remembered, on that map I was on the eastern part of a landmass so I only had one front and that neighbor had no Horses anywhere near him. (Myself and the other AIs on the landmass did). In fact that AI was really screwed by the map generator, it was one of the Mongol leaders and had no Copper nor Iron either.

Pacal's unit is a no-resource-required spearman. Why wouldn't you build that? When I have played him they start being built as soon as I get bronze working.

[Blaupanzer]

Any of the psycho civs with horses will build HAs like crazy. When a whole stack of HAs shows up while you are without construction or feudalism, you will miss those spearmen. If my civ is financial, I build up the treasury while keeping warriors in the interior cities. If bad guy HAs show up I pay to convert these usually heavily experienced warriors to spears on the spot. Otherwise they all become axemen to support one of my offensive excursions. With elephants there is no real need for pikemen except for the Holy Romans.

[Ming]

With elephants there is no real need for pikemen except for the Holy Romans.

I disagree if the enemy has elephants also. Depending on the promotions, eles against eles is a pretty even battle. If you have a pikeman or two, there is really nothing a ele can do against you except die.

[Blaupanzer]

I bow to the master. Pikemen are useful against knights too, leaving the elephants for offensive uses. This relates to the AI actually counterattacking your stacks seeking flanking damage versus your trebs and cats.

[rah]

YEah, my problem is that I like to promote ELE"S * then Shock. While the AI like to promote * ** *** so while my ele's can handle spearmen, AI ele's can clean my ele's clock. So a couple of pikeman help on defense but not so on offense.

[Ming]

As always, it's still a matter of combined arms. When I'm on the attack, it really doesn't matter since collateral damage units can knick anything, and then my offensive/killing units can do their job. But in most cases, you stack will be attacked, and I like having a few key defensive units in the stack that will counter whatever the AI can bring to the table. A pikeman or two can really stop some of the losses of your collateral damage units. It also keeps your offensive units from having to defend. I really hate it when I lose a triple city raider maceman because it was forced to defend against an Ele or other such unit. I would rather have a crossbowman/longbow/pikeman take the hit.

[prelynmax]

Sure, WE's are powerful, but without Ivory, (which are common near the Equator), they are not reachable all the time.

[Ming]

True enough... It is funny that it is the only strategic resource that appears in groups.

Ivory is one of those resources that is worth dictating your offensive strategy to get early in the game.

[Blaupanzer]

The design treats 'elephants' as "ivory," a luxury resource and distributes the resource in the luxury pattern. Elephants as a weapon of war requiring ivory, a non-strategic resource, smacks of the connection between the two being an afterthought several civs ago that has never been corrected. Matters not, it is visible in the beginning and is well worth going after early.

[joncnunn]

oops [what I posted deleted]; perhaps I'm too tired to be posting.