Trouble at low difficulty levels

[Sarco]

This thread has finally made me understand a SE economy enough to want to try it.

I'm playing at Monarch level now but I've only run CE before. I wonder if I should go down a notch before trying. Do you guys decide the CE/SE issue after you see the map?

I suppose my question really is, do you decide if you will run a CE/SE economy based on available food for cities or what do you use to decide?

[wodan11]

Simple math.

Pacifism costs an extra odd gold per unit. In exchange, you get +3GPP per specialist per turn. Say you're running an average of 4 extra specialists per city. That's +12GPP / city / turn. Say you have 9 cities. That's 108 GPP / turn. If it's your 5th GP, that'll take 14 turns. If it's your 10th GP, that'll take 51 turns.

If you're running a GP Farm, generating say 45 GPP / turn, then that becomes 90 GPP / turn. NE makes it 180 GP / turn. If it's your 5th GP, that's 8 turns. If your 10th, that's 31 turns.

Each GP can add (depending on skill level) a lightbulb or settle. Lightbulb is +X beakers (say +2500). That equates to support for an extra 83 units for 30 turns (or 30 units for 83 turns).

Or settle. That's +9 beakers / turn, plus Oxford, University, Library, Observatory = what, about 27 beakers/turn. That's support for an extra 27 units indefinitely.

Now, do it again (settle a second Great Scientist). Your 27 units are now 54.

Again. 81 units. How many were you planning on using? Well, you can settle a dozen or more great scientists. That's support for over 300 units.

Above and beyond this, SE has a strength over CE particularly in warring because SE has better production. CE by its nature has to work cottages, which (by and large) have 0 hammers before Democracy. SE can and does work mines and plains farms. Thus, all cities have more production than the CE analogue.

Anyway we don't want to turn this thread into a CE / SE debate. We're just pointing out some examples and hopefully opening some eyes. Anyone who hasn't tried a SE, give it a shot! It's a fun alternate way to play.

[joncnunn]

Certain civs have minor biases:
Phio ones (other than Liz) are biased towards SE thanks to the increased GPP.

Financial ones (other than Liz) are biased towards CE thanks to cottages on rivers starting with an extra gold.

Liz (which is both) is actually biased towards the Hybrid economy which is a cross between CE & SE.

The other civs have no apprent biases.

And what might be missing here is usually in a SE you do run cottages in your capital (and sometimes the next one or two as well) since before you hit CoL and can adopt Caste System it's difficult to actually have something for specalists to do.

The moral is that CE vs SE is really a false choice; there is a whole wide spectrum between the two.

Also, a CE can and does mine hill and farm plains as well. The extra hammers in a SE is mostly from more Priests / Enginers (especaly with Caste System)

[Lord Avalon]

Originally posted by joncnunn

Also, a CE can and does mine hill and farm plains as well. The extra hammers in a SE is mostly from more Priests / Enginers (especaly with Caste System)

Wait, what do Priests & Engineers have to do with Caste System?

[Sarco]

Priests have a lot to do with cast system, engineers don't.

I suppose SE is the key to finally do well with non-financial civs. Is there any philosophical-industrial leader?

[BrotherBiff]

well i like to have a beefy military so SE may not work for me

[Lord Avalon]

Originally posted by Sarco
Priests have a lot to do with cast system, engineers don't.

How so? Caste System allows unlimited artists, merchants or scientists.

[Blaupanzer]

Caste system does not provide for additional hammer specialists. It does mean you can get money, science, or culture beyond and before buildings provide that option.

[joncnunn]

Oops, I thought there were unlimited Priests as well with Caste System; it must just be the ease of geting Priests with multiple religious buildings that made it feel that way.

The Enginner coment was mostly that when your running a nearly pure CE, most of your cities have no specalists at all for much of the game, and therefore no Enginner. While if your running a nearly pure SE, by defination almost all of your cities will have at least one specalist and the ones with a Forge will all have an Enginner.

Personally I think I would lean a bit more towards SE than CE if only I could tell the governors I never want them running Spy Specalists unless the other choices are Artists or Citizens.

[Theben]

Originally posted by Sarco
Priests have a lot to do with cast system, engineers don't.

I suppose SE is the key to finally do well with non-financial civs. Is there any philosophical-industrial leader?

No unlimited priests or engineers with caste system, sorry.

And there is not nor never will be an official Phil/Indust leader. It'd be too powerful... so I'm told.

run pacifism if you want to loose a buck per unit is just insane why would anybody want that

In addition to using vassalage to limit unit costs, pacifism has NO maintenance costs. Generally people run Org Religion or Theocracy which are high/medium cost, so just switching will save you a lot with a large empire.

[Sarco]

Ooops, I was mistaken from never running caste system except when playing for cultural wins. I suppose all those priests I saw last game made me think caste system was for them as well.

Would be overpowered early game though come to think of it, sorry

[BrotherBiff]

In addition to using vassalage to limit unit costs, pacifism has NO maintenance costs. Generally people run Org Religion or Theocracy which are high/medium cost, so just switching will save you a lot with a large empire. [/QUOTE]

sure you'll get some nice GP's with pacifism and you'll be cultured out but whats the point if some AI will just come in stomp you with your rocking sissy military. and take the cities you built up.

[Theben]

Originally posted by BrotherBiff
sure you'll get some nice GP's with pacifism and you'll be cultured out but whats the point if some AI will just come in stomp you with your rocking sissy military. and take the cities you built up.

Well, since I'll enough military to slow him down, and they'll have 2 promotions at build (barracks+vassalage), as well as a large enough cultural border that it'll take him a long time to reach my city, AND that when they get there the AI ALWAYS stops to bombard no matter how thin the defense... I'm not worried.

Now if it was an MP player, I'd worry.

[Boracks]

Originally posted by BrotherBiff
sure you'll get some nice GP's with pacifism and you'll be cultured out but whats the point if some AI will just come in stomp you with your rocking sissy military. and take the cities you built up.

Except that with the help of the GS's my tech will be better and with the GM's I'll have been able to upgrade my army. Hardly a sissy military.

[BrotherBiff]

i highly doubt you'll be that far up in techs on the AI