Combat Vs City Garrison Vs Drill

[AusSpyder]

This is probably a basic question, but neither the civpedia or trial and error has given me any info

When making defensive units (archers, longbows, muskets etc) which is better out of the three? Ive typically gone for city garrison, but im not sure whether or not that stays in effect when bombarded, and the AI always takes care of my defense units far far easier (and without siege) than I can take out theres.

As for naval units, I cannot get them to beat the AI's consistently. My tireme with three promotions will almost always lose to the AI's with the same. Ive tried copying the AI and going nothing but combat promotions, but I dont notice the strength going up, I'm not really sure what combat does. 10% extra strength... does that mean a unit with 12 strength is now 13.2 strength? are these promotions cumulative?

as for tanks, I typically give them nothing but drill promotions, but for some reason way more often than i like I will lose a tank to something stupid like a maceman (yes, i play on settler :P)

How would it be possible for a maceman to kill a tank if it has 4-5 first strikes? I'm guessing it dosn't work like i think it does.

I'm aware that I should specialise my units based on what I plan to do with them, but im too noob for that and its working out bad, so till i get less noob I would be happy with an idea on what to give each unit to maximise its effectiveness in whatever I have it do (excluding city defenders of course)

Oh, also, I tend to keep pikemen in my cities with my archers in case they invade with knights. Should i give them city defense/combat or improve there anti cavelry?

[snoopy369]

It depends a lot on the situation. If you are using them to defend cities (ie, they will sit in the cities and be attacked), then CG is usually the best, though occasionally drill is better (if you know the units coming at you, they are weaker, and vulnerable to first strikes, then extra FS's will make your units not lose as many hit points in combat, and thus survive a larger mass... so if you're defending with Crossbows, and have a wave of Swordsmen coming at you, for example, Drill is probably your best option, as each swordsman will take off fewer hit points.)

However, I rarely 'defend' by sitting in the city - it's usually better to move out and aggressively attack. Thus, Combat or Drill depending on the unit and the likely aggressor is best.

First Strike basically says you get X chances to hit in before the other guy does - so instead of
A attacks B 25% chance, to do 20/100 hp
B attacks A 35% chance, to do 30/100 hp
A attacks B 25% chance, to do 20/100 hp
B attacks A 35% chance, to do 30/100 hp
...
you have
A attacks B 25% chance, to do 20/100 hp
A attacks B 25% chance, to do 20/100 hp
(2 FS's)
then
A attacks B 25% chance, to do 20/100 hp
B attacks A 25% chance, to do 30/100 hp
etc.

If you have a low chance to hit, the FS don't really make a big difference because you probably don't hit on them (that said, it's still better than not having them). If you have a very high chance to hit, it can help a lot because you reduce your opponent significantly, reducing the number of chances HE gets to hit YOU - so a crossbow vs sword, probably 75% chance on each hit for the CB vs 25% for the sword, say:

2 FS:
2 75% chances to hit, then the sword gets a 25% chance, then the CB gets a 75% chance, etc. ...
so the sword has probably 1/3 or so of his HP removed (don't know the specific numbers and don't have time to figure it out specifically) before the battle starts, so fewer hits on the crossbow, and thus less damage taken. It is of course also a higher chance to win, but in that fight the CB is going to win basically 100% of the time anyway; it's just fewer HP taken off.

[AusSpyder]

Where can I find a units chance to hit?

[Hauptman]

First off, city garrison is great for the defensive, but completely worthless on the attack, so it should be an uncommon promotion, figure 1 per city, 2 or 3 on a very vulnerable city. These are the units that you never expect to move out of the city. The standard garrison unit, mainly for the happiness issue. City garrison 2 is what, a 50% bonus? So even after the culture or wall bonus is knocked down, you still maintain that 50% that cannot be taken away. Now imagine a longbow (+25%) with city garrison 3 (+75%). That gives you a total 100% bonus in a city even without walls (strength 12). Quite impressive. Try to attack a catapult or other unit as it approaches and whammo back to strength 6.

Now try combat promotions. with 3 promotions you can gain +30% always, both on attack and defence. More useful, but less impressive. So you have to learn to mix it up.

Generally speaking, your main defence should be a roving stack that can move to any general hotspot rather quickly. Make use of catapults and horsemen to soften up attacking stacks and with wise use of terrain you can break up massive AI attacks with minimal losses before a city is even threatened.

Pikemen are another story. They cannot gain city garrison promotions. So generally I give them combat 2 followed by the +25% vs mounted. It makes them great defenders vs Knights but on the attack with a mixed stack, they will end up loosing to a crossbow or maceman. Even an axeman will beat them easily. But they are very important units as the AI's love cavalry units and usually in my games can make up 50% of the opposing forces, if not more.

As far as your naval question, you may not realize the 10% bonus a defender gets on coastline. A trireme attacking another with the same promotions is at a disadvantage. And will usually loose. If you must attack, use multiple ships. One sacraficed to soften up the defender, then the second to sink it... It's a 1 for 1 trade wich should only be done in emergencies. Otherwise, let them attack you so that you gain the advantage.

as with loosing tanks to macemen, yes it can happen. A maceman standing on a forested hill that hasent moved in 5 turns will be quite powerful. Str 8 + 50% (forest) +25% (hill) +25% (dug in) becomes str 16 without promotions. Less than a tank yes, but still able to get lucky. Factor in the correct promotions and it could be a 50/50 fight quite easily. Just pay attention to where you are attacking, not just what.

[Hauptman]

Originally posted by AusSpyder
Where can I find a units chance to hit?

use the "goto" command. Hover the destination over the unit to attack. You will get the overall chance of victory.

After combat, you can go into the combat log (upper left corner) and see the turn to turn results.

[Willem]

Originally posted by AusSpyder
When making defensive units (archers, longbows, muskets etc) which is better out of the three? Ive typically gone for city garrison, but im not sure whether or not that stays in effect when bombarded, and the AI always takes care of my defense units far far easier (and without siege) than I can take out theres.

The two best for city defence are Garrison and Drill. Combat is mainly an offensive promotion. The advantage of Drill is that as you gain in levels, the unit takes less collateral damage from siege weapons. So it's a good idea to have both types in a city, not just one.

as for tanks, I typically give them nothing but drill promotions, but for some reason way more often than i like I will lose a tank to something stupid like a maceman (yes, i play on settler :P)

Drill is something of a waste for Tanks IMO. It's primarily an offensive unit so you should be giving it promotions like City Raider or even Combat. I personally like giving them Flank first so they can retreat if theit attack doesn't go well.

Oh, also, I tend to keep pikemen in my cities with my archers in case they invade with knights. Should i give them city defense/combat or improve there anti cavelry?

You can't give Pikemen City Garrison. Only archery units and Gunpowder ones can can get those promotions. And you need two ranks in Combat before you can improve their anti-horse abilities. So go with Combat for two ranks.

[joncnunn]

One major exception to the what level of City Garrison you can expect enemy archery units to have : Protective Civs. For them figure every Archer / Longbow unit is going to have both CG 1, CG2, and Drill I to boot.

[joncnunn]

What promotions to give Tanks depend a lot upon techs your opponent has.

If your oppoents can build SAM Inf -> Mostly go with Combat I + Pinch promotions, you'll be facing them a lot in the field.

If your oppoents can't build SAM Inf but can build Infs -> I'd go exclusivity with City Raider promotions; regular Infs no match for Tanks in the field, but CR is still needed against the ones dug into cities.

If your opponents can't build either Sam Inf nor Infs but can build either Rifles or Muskets -> I'd go with Drill I + Pinch myself. Rifles / Muskets or just so inferior that Drill promotions are highly useful at reducing the damage you take.

If your opponent can't build Gunpowder units -> Your playing at too low a difficulty level.

[snafuc4]

Here's my take for garrison only troops (BTW I'm a terrible player):

1st promo - Combat 1. The extra 10% HP can work wonders, & leads to
2nd promo - Medic 1. This STM to be vital to keep your troops healthy in the event of a seige

After that you're pretty much on your own, other than to say it's preferable to have 2 troops with medic 1 in a seiged city, as one can't heal itself

[AusSpyder]

Thanks for all the help

[Theben]

Originally posted by Willem
Drill is something of a waste for Tanks IMO. It's primarily an offensive unit so you should be giving it promotions like City Raider or even Combat. I personally like giving them Flank first so they can retreat if theit attack doesn't go well.

I disagree. Drill is a very useful offensive option if you're equal to or higher than your target in power. Consider what your target is going to be. If it's a weak foe such as rifleman in a city, or infantry in the open, drill II+ is a good pick. Now if you're planning to overrun several cities then yes go with City Raider instead.

You can't give Pikemen City Garrison. Only archery units and Gunpowder ones can can get those promotions. And you need two ranks in Combat before you can improve their anti-horse abilities. So go with Combat for two ranks.

You can also get anti-horse with Drill II. Unfortunately, since the only horse units vulnerable to drill are chariots and cavalry , it makes for a good unit but not one with a strong specialized attack/defense.

Btw, Drill is IMO a better pick for ships than Combat once you reach Caravels. Once you reach Drill III, fighting against ships of equal power you're almost a guaranteed kill, while using those with Com III still lose too often.

[Supr49er]

I will always have a Machinegun promoted up the CG line in my coastal cities. 1 Machinegun with CGIII can hold off an amphibious AI boatful (or two).

[Willem]

Originally posted by snafuc4
Here's my take for garrison only troops (BTW I'm a terrible player):

1st promo - Combat 1. The extra 10% HP can work wonders, & leads to
2nd promo - Medic 1. This STM to be vital to keep your troops healthy in the event of a seige

After that you're pretty much on your own, other than to say it's preferable to have 2 troops with medic 1 in a seiged city, as one can't heal itself

That's really bad advice. An Archer with Medic is primarily useful only as a backup defender. Combat isn't going to add alot to your defence strength if someone attacks, not like City Garrison. Combat is only a strength increase of 10%, City Garrison adds 20% to city defence. Do the math and you'll see which is better.

It's also pointless having 2 Medics in a city since the effect doesn't stack, and yes they do heal themselves. The ability applies to all units on the tile including the one who has it. Also, the Medic ability is now available to units who have Drill 1, so you're better off getting it that way for a defending unit.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Theben
Now if you're planning to overrun several cities then yes go with City Raider instead.

Well that's kind of the purpose of Tanks isn't it, to use a Blitzkrieg approach?

You can also get anti-horse with Drill II. Unfortunately, since the only horse units vulnerable to drill are chariots and cavalry , it makes for a good unit but not one with a strong specialized attack/defense.

I didn't know that. But Drill would make sense for a city defender. It may not help that much against some of the horse units, but it would against any siege weapons that came along, at least if you had more than one rank in it.

Btw, Drill is IMO a better pick for ships than Combat once you reach Caravels.

I think it's a better pick for sea units overall. Though I'll go for the Flank promotion on some so I can get the Sentry promotion. That extra visibilty helps alot with sea units, you can do a much better job of monitoring your coast with it.

[joncnunn]

Keep in mind in the case of sea units that while Drill I is better than Combat I against no promotion equal units, if the opponent has combat I, they have a superior unit, starting about Frigate.