Is slavery better than I think it is?

[SvenVvath]

I've played a few games using slavery and I didn't like it for 1 reason: It stunted my growth. I've been reading the SE (Specialists Economy) stuff and a few other threads and looks like people look to slavery a lot.

Am I doing something wrong that makes slavery better than what I think it is?

I tried it and I'd whip, grow, whip, grow... wait, whip.... grow... but no.... not grow. I was getting my people back... but they were all angry. =[. Unwilling to forgive my cruel acts of oppression. In turn... I might have whipped out a few things... but then my capital ... and possible my second city ... were suffering. That was 30 turns a pop.

And the whole mass chopping thing didn't add happiness to that situation. I was pretty happy that I'd founded a city that could grow so fast... and I chopped my heart out... and then the fifty million people were sick. Sick and angry ::sigh::

(I added the chopping thing for the juicy... it's really only about the slavery. So far as chopping goes... do the math and be safe with your forests until you can fix up your peeps without trees. *Oh snap he said 'peeps'*)

Not to mention you open the door for the 'City Revolt' event. Lemme know what you all think.

I might add I usually only play on Marathon.
Oh and P.P.S.- I'm playin' a game on my friend's 'puter via webcam and she's doin' my moves for me. But she seems to have toggled OFF the ranking score thingy on the side above the mini-map. Andbody know how to toggle that back ON? I don't remember when I can't be hands on.

Thanks!

[TriMiro]

The ranking button is in the lower left corner right above the minimap (I think, might be wrong).

As for slavery, well I don't get it well either. Whipping Axeman seems a waste, 2 people if no hammers were placed on it yet (waste) and 1 person otherwise (1 person for 1 unhappy is also a waste). You can whip buildings but there seems to be very few useful buildings in the beginning (barracks, library and granary).

The other problem that I have with slavery is the slow regrowth in a regular map. It just takes too long for the city to regrow for the whip to be worthy (IMHO).

I use a lot of whip in RFC mod and there are some civs that are designed for good whip. Egypt and China are the best examples. I use slavery in RFC pretty much all the time, but I cannot get it to work well for me in regular game. I am not sure what I am doing wrong.

[Lancer]

Yes, it is... As most married men will attest.

[Jaybe]

The following slavery tip courtesy of a post of Blake's from long ago (who had a hand in Civ4 coding).
When I use slavery I usually also use the production-manager governor, which you can also use with your own production queue. It manages when to do the whipping, so I don't have to. Rarely results in unhappies.

Beware, however, that it will be happy to take a mind of its own when your specified production queue expires. So some vigilance is required.

Sometimes in the early game I will use slavery civic, other times not at all. I usually go for code of laws and utilize caste system; sometimes it is my first labor civic.

Then again, I'm a little weird: rather than bothering with religious rivalries, my first religion civic may be free religion (with Shwedagon Paya).

[guermantes]

Originally posted by Jaybe
When I use slavery I usually also use the production-manager governor, which you can also use with your own production queue. It manages when to do the whipping, so I don't have to. Rarely results in unhappies.

Did I understand that correctly? If I queue up some units/buildings for production, and then also have the governor emphasize production, will he do the whipping for me automatically/tell me when it's a good time to whip?

[The Priest]

I agree that slavery can easily be over-rated.

Its main use IMHO is in the very early game and is really to do with resources. If you have a city with three great food resources (say two fish and a grassland cow) then when you are three population your surplus food is huge. Above that you are probably harvesting pretty poor tiles, particlarly if you haven't been able to imrpove them yet. So dropping back from pop 5 to pop 3 doesn't weaken the output of the city much, and yet does give you a big production bonus. And that chances are that you are still below you happiness cap.

Once you are looking at more mature cities, though, who are close to happiness caps, or where all the citizens are harvesting improved tiles, I would only use it in military emergencies or to get a wonder. Even in the early game, if your city is as good at production as at food, it's value is limited.

The other use I can see is in later warfare to rush a theatre in a captured city to get some culture in it. This certianly works but I find caste is just as good (assign an artist) and works better for my established cities.

I could belive that slavery is more useful in MP where very early military seems important.

[fed1943]

Whip is a powerful tool.
You trade food and turns for hammers and turns.
Consider food, hammers, happiness, the output of
the lost tiles and of the hurried thing.
Best regards,

[wodan11]

Whipping and SE have little to do with one another. In fact, whipping is counter-productive to a SE. People sometimes lump them together but the fact of the matter is that whipping probably helps a CE more than a SE.

As for whipping, I definitely agree it's overrated. It helps in some situations, but if overused it's definitely a detriment. Also, it's essential in MP, mostly because MP is all about early rushing or protecting yourself from the same.

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by guermantes


Did I understand that correctly? If I queue up some units/buildings for production, and then also have the governor emphasize production, will he do the whipping for me automatically/tell me when it's a good time to whip?

He means use the production governor, not the emphasize production button. The button that lets the AI do your producing for you (building/unit choices). You can apparently use it with your own queue and it will build what you ask it to, but also whip for you.

I don't have time right now to answer fully, but the short answer to the topic is "Yes".

[Jaybe]

Originally posted by guermantes
Did I understand that correctly? If I queue up some units/buildings for production, and then also have the governor emphasize production, will he do the whipping for me automatically/tell me when it's a good time to whip?

Activate the icon ABOVE the food icon: that is the Production Automation control. It will not TELL you anything -- it will just DO it. When you see something strange being built there, you will have the opportunity to curse that your build queue has expired and "the stupid governor has s*** for brains." But at least it seems to apply the whip well.

[Nikomakkos]

The governors apply the whip well? Haha, that's excellent. Nice to know that the people working for me are the same kind of inhumane sadists I am. When playing the game I mean...

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Re: Is slavery better than I think it is?

Originally posted by SvenVvath
Am I doing something wrong that makes slavery better than what I think it is?

Slavery isn't infinitely awesome, but it's probably worth more than you are getting from it right now.

My first guess would be that you are leaning on it a bit indiscriminately. When your best use of food is hammers, slavery is a great way to effect that conversion. When the best way to invest food is something else, it's just floundering.

Second guess is that you aren't using all of the controls at your disposal. Maximizing the return of slavery will often require juggling the work queue, juggling your worked tiles, buying happy with the commerce slider, and so on.

Third is that there is a heavy element of "now vs later" involved in slavery - "I will gladly pay you Tuesday for a Hamburger today". Whip misery fades, but a captured continent is a joy forever....

[SvenVvath]

Thanks for the insight everyone. I feel a little better toward slavery now. I also feel that my play style won't benifit from it as much as others. Another question.

Do some Civs feel the pain of revolting cities more than others? Or is it totally random per game. I've had games where I've chosen to go ahead an convert to slavery. In doing so RARELY whipped. But I was getting many revolts in a couple of cities that I hadn't even whipped in. I think maybe even before using my whipping privileges! Maybe a n event that doesn't bother some as much as it bothers me. None-the-less, that's still lost turns sprinkled about my empire.

I guess it also feel, therefor, like a gamble. Granted it's only i small amount extra... I have to pay the upkeep on that for which I don't know exactly how much it'll effect me. I know I know... if the revolting get so bad I can always revert back to Tribalism.

Sorry guys and girls. I'm bad about NOT putting my questions at the end ^_^.

Are there any other actions that might contribute to slave revolting? I wouldn't mind whipping some cats into shape if I could have a CHANCE at lowering the slave revolt frequency. If I could TRICK my people into thinkin' I wouldn't do that to them. : evil grin :

[Theben]

Any city size 4 pop or over can have revolts. So it doesn't pay to be in slavery and not slave away. If you aren't going to pick anything else.

[snoopy369]

Slave revolts as far as I know are solely caused by the civic, not by your actual actions. I don't think it's related to anything else, but I don't know for sure.