Carry on or fold? (Game save attachment inside)

[Diadem]

Originally posted by NFIH
Yet another try at this map.

Honestly, am I just getting unusually screwed here or am I doing something wrong? Check this out:

This time I build up a strong military, good enough for third best on that score.

I'm Buddhist and share the religion with four other civs, including two of my three most aggressive neighbours, Justinian and Alexander.

In AD 820, Suleiman attacks. As usual. Ho-hum. He assaults a city and can't take it. I take one of his. Also, he's not Buddhist. So I turn to my religious friends for help. Everything is redded out. I can't do a bloody thing with them. WTF?

But get this: Not only do I not even have the opportunity to ask for help from my brothers, but in AD 1030 Alex and Qin Shi attack me. And Alex is Buddhist!

Attached are both saves from the years the civs declared on me. Please comment on whatever it is I'm doing wrong because I don't see it.

(Can't seem to attach two files so the second is in a new post below.)

I admit I find their declarations to be strange. But well it's the AI, we can't always expect it to be rational.

In general I've noticed that AIs tend to look at religion amongst eachother a lot less than towards you. Plenty of times you see religious rivals who are pleased with eachother. And there are always major differences between leaders in how willing they are to trade, declare war, how important religion is to them, etc.

Another thing that matters is their distance. Alexander doesn't border Suleiman, and neither does Qin Shi Huang (I think, at least their starts are far apart). It's near impossible to ge the AI to declare on a non-neighbour.

Finally, the AI plans wars a few turns in advance. I'm not sure how many. Once he has decided to attack you, he won't do anything friendly anymore, and he certainly won't start other wars. So it could be that these civs were already planning to attack you when you talked to them.

Anyway, to your game. All I can say is: WOW! That's a lot of units! With so many units you should have attacked someone ages ago and smashed him into pieces. Attacking is usually better than defending.

As it is, those wars are nothing to worry about. You'll smash suleiman. In fact you did, in that later save you're about to take his capital aren't you? Though you are allowing him to choke city 2. Clearly you should've roaded that city ages ago, and build a mobile defence force to stop incursions like that.

As to Alexander and Qin Shi Huang. Laugh at them. They have nothing that worries you.

Unless you really plan on building axes to defend against Alexander's chariot stack, of course

[Diadem]

One final remark.

SCOUT MORE!

You're almost completely in the dark about your rivals territories. That's very bad. You don't know what they have, how big they are, etc. You should scout way more. Early game scout all unclaimed land with warriors. Just send 1 or 2 around and keep walking around until there's nothing left to scout. Then once you can open borders explore rival territory. In general you want to open borders with everyone, and certainly you close rivals.

[NFIH]

Thanks for all the replies, folks! I appreciate it. I considered explaining myself further in response to the latest batch of comments, because in fact I have executed all of the mentioned strategies to one degree or another (including pounding Suleiman down to one city), but at this point I've grown tired of this particular match. So I've deleted it entirely and will try a new one and continue to take the advice you've given.

I don't pretend to be a good player but it's the diplomacy that has most frustrated me. I got the military issue under control after a while and have been able to beat back any assault, and launch a few of my own, but the lack of diplomatic flexibility afforded me has really grated on my nerves. So instead of beating my head against a wall, I'll try a different map (e.g. fractal) where I won't need to worry about diplomacy (as in, relying on timely allied help) as much.

[Diadem]

You should consider making a DAR about your first 50 or so turns and posting it here, and asking for comments. I am sure many peopple can give you pointers about how to improve your game further.

[Theben]

W/o loading your game I'll make some generic comments based on the above.

Connecting your network is extremely important, and connecting to special resources is ALWAYS a priority. The network allows:
*quick movement of units
*trade between cities
*Specials to be used by ALL your cities, for health/happiness/military/production bonus, etc.
*Allows religion to spread. Useful to you if you have a state religion, moreso if you have religious civics available. Espec Org Rel early game.
*Connect specials to capital to trade with other nations

And probably some other things I forget. Point is you're making it harder for yourself by not doing so.

To use the example above, you are building walls. While it has some merit (increases your power rank to the AI), why would you do so and not have your stone hooked up?! Stone halves the cost of walls and castles. All you had to do was build a road and quarry and you'd save And if you have Organized Religion, with your state rel in that city (which the network also helps spread for FREE), it'll cost even less.

I 2nd that you don't need obelisks. Not this game. They're a waste.

Once you start having unhappy people you need to examine why, and what you can do about it. Do you have happy specials that aren't hooked up? Are there buildings you can build/slave to alleviate this (as Spiritual, slaving a temple is always a good bet)? Does the AI have something you can trade for? Need to research calendar and build some plantations? Or do you just need to slave down some people? Like IRL, don't let unhappy people ruin your day.

Do you have a general tech path for your game start, and how far does it go? For me, it's get BW 1st, then the basics I don't have (wheel & agri), masonry-> myst->poly->mono (to get Judaism & Org Rel), then back for others depending on how the game is shaping up. In this game I added Archery early b/c you said you were having barb problems. At higher levels I might skip a basic to get Mono quicker, or get Sailing for the trade bonus- which btw extends your trade network. Definitely get pottery soon afterwards. I'm usually the last person to get Iron Working, and other players go for Writing/CoL earlier than I do. Find a plan that works for you, and don't be afraid to alter it as the game demands.

Here I'm gonna differ with Diadem. Granaries rock. Build them as often as you can, espec early, so your people bounce back quicker after you slave them out (at slower game speeds this becomes even more crucial). Just make sure you have enough military cities to churn out units while those other cities are slaving settlers, workers, and buildings.
They aren't as helpful at higher levels, with the lower happiness threshold, but at noble with the happy specials you have available this shouldn't be a concern.

Scouting is good too, and having a +ESP vs. the AI is also good. Notice in my game I can not only see what they are researching but in many cases I can see into their cities. Spreading my State Religion helps in this case. This is why I knew Cyrus was going to attack me, which he did after the Sully invasion.

Speaking of that, after Sully fought me, I went from "worst enemy" one turn, to open borders/can trade maps next turn, to war ally vs. Cyrus the next turn (the last cost me a good tech tho). So don't forget to build relations with the AI when you can. Sometimes gifting useless techs goes a long way.

Hope that helps.

[Theben]

Originally posted by Diadem
Also it looks like you might want to slave a bit more. Your capital for example has unhappiness due to size, no slavery unhappiness, yet you haven't rushed that libary. Why? (You shouldn't rush it now, costs only one pop. Should've slaved at 2 or even 3 pop).

Again to differ, sometimes I will slave when I'm only 2 or even 1 turn from completing something. Why? Because I get the spillover into my next project, which dramatically lowers the buildtime. After the hammers are officially added (1 more turn) I can slave out the next item cheaply or build it normally much quicker. Note when I do this I also look to see how my city will be impacted by the slaving and how quickly it'll re-grow. A few turns to re-grow, unhappiness present or stagnant grow= slave now, while long time to re-grow, slavery unhappiness already in city, or severe production loss= slave later or not at all.

[NFIH]

Originally posted by Theben

To use the example above, you are building walls. While it has some merit (increases your power rank to the AI), why would you do so and not have your stone hooked up?! Stone halves the cost of walls and castles. All you had to do was build a road and quarry and you'd save And if you have Organized Religion, with your state rel in that city (which the network also helps spread for FREE), it'll cost even less.

Actually, because of city placement, the stone wasn't in my borders for a very long time. In the first dozen games I played I always placed so I could get the stone and then would sometimes prioritize the Great Wall to stop barbs (it's on raging barbs). But then I decided the GW was too much of a diversion and instead tried to get the horse that is farther south. Therefore, the stone wasn't as necessary.

I 2nd that you don't need obelisks. Not this game. They're a waste.

I built obelisks in two key cities not because I overvalue them but because they were defensive cultural builds to keep the enemy civs from taking my specials. Specifically, in the southern city where there is a horse, there is also a rice special. It's critical to keep it if you want the city to grow. But it's so close to the Persian border that it *always* flipped if I didn't get extra culture going--my bonus culture for Hattie wasn't enough, even if it was my second city settled. I know this because I played it so many, many times.

Then at my northeastern city, I built obelisks there to keep Justinian out from my valuable grasslands that I needed for cottaging since I was only going to get four or five cities to start and needed to max my commerce output. Without extra culture, his nearby city shrank my fat cross by two or three grassland squares. Not acceptable.

In my southwestern city I had to build an obelisk to be able to hold on to an ivory tile as it was being squeezed by both Alex and Cyrus.

Again, I tried all of this without building obelisks and all the aforementioned tiles (sometimes the third one wouldn't though) would always flip.

Once you start having unhappy people you need to examine why, and what you can do about it. Do you have happy specials that aren't hooked up? Are there buildings you can build/slave to alleviate this (as Spiritual, slaving a temple is always a good bet)?

I'm pretty sure I focused on this, not least of all because of the extra income from all the Calendar-tech specials I had. I actually beelined for it.

Do you have a general tech path for your game start, and how far does it go? For me, it's get BW 1st, then the basics I don't have (wheel & agri), masonry-> myst->poly->mono (to get Judaism & Org Rel), then back for others depending on how the game is shaping up. In this game I added Archery early b/c you said you were having barb problems. At higher levels I might skip a basic to get Mono quicker, or get Sailing for the trade bonus- which btw extends your trade network. Definitely get pottery soon afterwards. I'm usually the last person to get Iron Working, and other players go for Writing/CoL earlier than I do. Find a plan that works for you, and don't be afraid to alter it as the game demands.

I'm going from memory, but in this particular game/map I followed: BW (to chop three settlers)->archery->animal husbandry->pottery->mysticism->iron working->polytheism.

I did not get masonry in this set because the stone wasn't in my cultural borders anyway. Mysticism I picked up so that my new border cities could hold on to some specials on which the other civs' cities were encroaching.

I attempted to time pottery so that I would be building an archer/warrior while throwing up my first two cottages. This is because the city would actually be growing during this time.

Iron working I got relatively early so that the southern cities--surrounded by jungle, including a key rice special--could actually grow and work cottages, etc.

Here I'm gonna differ with Diadem. Granaries rock. Build them as often as you can, espec early, so your people bounce back quicker after you slave them out (at slower game speeds this becomes even more crucial).

Yes, I've read the strategy guides, etc., and it was my understanding that granaries are crucial, especially if you're slaving. Also, on this particular map there was a lot of health-reducing jungle so it was doubly necessary to grow the pop cap.

Scouting is good too, and having a +ESP vs. the AI is also good. Notice in my game I can not only see what they are researching but in many cases I can see into their cities. Spreading my State Religion helps in this case. This is why I knew Cyrus was going to attack me, which he did after the Sully invasion.

I dispensed with scouting after the first dozen games because I already knew where everything was and who was going to attack me (just not when).

Speaking of that, after Sully fought me, I went from "worst enemy" one turn, to open borders/can trade maps next turn, to war ally vs. Cyrus the next turn (the last cost me a good tech tho). So don't forget to build relations with the AI when you can. Sometimes gifting useless techs goes a long way.

Ironically, in all the games I played I was never once attacked by Cyrus. And others only attacked him once or twice. So he always ended up leading the board as he was able to develop completely unmolested.

And the other funny thing is that in this series of games I have never been more friendly with the AIs. I was routinely at pleased or friendly status with a minimum of three other civs. Yet, no matter what I traded for or gave them, only in one game was I able to get allied help--and that was only after giving every tech I had. In the last game I got no help at all despite strategic planning on my part as to whose religion to share, whom to gift techs to, etc. I was pretty shocked.

[Theben]

Maybe your computer hates you.

[Diadem]

Originally posted by Theben
Here I'm gonna differ with Diadem. Granaries rock. Build them as often as you can, espec early, so your people bounce back quicker after you slave them out (at slower game speeds this becomes even more crucial). Just make sure you have enough military cities to churn out units while those other cities are slaving settlers, workers, and buildings.
They aren't as helpful at higher levels, with the lower happiness threshold, but at noble with the happy specials you have available this shouldn't be a concern.

Agreed in general. But in this particular game, given the state of his empire, I'd say there are other priorities. Granaries are very important, but so are settlers, workers and military. Gettin those settlers and workers out is more important in the very early game, especially since your city isn't growing while you're doing that, reducing the usefulness of granaries.

Originally posted by Theben
Again to differ, sometimes I will slave when I'm only 2 or even 1 turn from completing something. Why? Because I get the spillover into my next project, which dramatically lowers the buildtime. After the hammers are officially added (1 more turn) I can slave out the next item cheaply or build it normally much quicker. Note when I do this I also look to see how my city will be impacted by the slaving and how quickly it'll re-grow. A few turns to re-grow, unhappiness present or stagnant grow= slave now, while long time to re-grow, slavery unhappiness already in city, or severe production loss= slave later or not at all.

Again agreed in general, but not in this particular case. In this particular case you'd mainly slave to get rid of unhappy citizens and to stop working unimproved tiles. Then you need to slave more than one population.

[Supr49er]

Originally posted by Theben


If you didn't slave at the start, it could explain why you're so far behind later...

I don't slave either, and must compensate in the early game. I know it's just a game, and slaving is an effective strategy, but I won't use it.

[Diadem]

Originally posted by Supr49er


I don't slave either, and must compensate in the early game. I know it's just a game, and slaving is an effective strategy, but I won't use it.

LOL. The people want it though.

Slaving increases both your approval rating and the life expectancy of your population.

[wodan11]

I think people are so convinced of Slavery's obvious superiority that they overlook all the costs. You have to build a granary. You have lesser citizens working fewer tiles. You have to run an otherwise useless Civic. You have revolts.

So when somebody says "Granaries rock" what they really mean is "Slavery rocks".

A granary without slavery is a "meh" building. Kind of nice, but is it better than a Library, a couple of extra early workers, or another Settler? Almost certainly not.

Wodan

[Ming]

Most people don't overlook all the costs of slavery. But they do realize the advantages it can give you in the early game when happiness caps are low. Used properly, it gives you an advantage over those that don't use it

And by the way, you can use slavery effectively without a granary

[wodan11]

Originally posted by Ming
Most people don't overlook all the costs of slavery. But they do realize the advantages it can give you in the early game when happiness caps are low.

I don't see how the happiness cap is relevant. It's better in the early game because a higher percentage of your cities are small, and slavery is most efficient when the city is small.

Used properly, it gives you an advantage over those that don't use it

It also gives you several disadvantages over those that don't use it.

And by the way, you can use slavery effectively without a granary

Sure. Just like you can use it effectively without improving your food resource tiles. It's just an inefficient way to go about it, that's all. However, it could still provide benefits, sure.

Wodan

[Colm]

This subject is going way off-topic, but I also never slave for many of the reasons given by Wodan:
I never build a granary; the city grows fast enough without them (actually faster then I want sometimes).
Also I see slaving as a sort of cheating. You get units/buildings out of thin air which is not realistic.