Carry on or fold? (Game save attachment inside)

[Theben]

Sure, if I can remember how to use the upload feature.

Did you let your cities grow before building workers/settlers?

[Theben]

http://www.apolyton.net/upload/view/1272_AtticaBlueBC-1240.CivBeyondSwordSave

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=1272_AtticaBlueAD-0325.CivBeyondSwordSave

The 1st is in late BC and gives a good idea of how I settled. The 2nd is where I stopped playing.

[Diadem]

DAR

It's always nice to compare your games to others. So I started from the initial save you provided and played from there. I didn't first look at screenshots or saves, so I'm did this part in the blind without prior knowledge of the map (save for a few tidbits about neighbours I read in this thread).

The first thing I did was taking a look at the settings screen. Noble difficulty, normal game speed, large pangeic map, all pretty standard. Raging barbarians is not a bit problem on pangeic maps (there'll soon be no room for them to spawn anymore). Aggressive AI is interesting though.

I seem to be Cre / Spi. Two traits I like a lot. As you will see below, I make optimal use of the Cre trait in this game, nearly all my cities are 2 tiles away from important resources, and close to AIs. Without Cre, that'd be painful (and Stonehenge only half compensates).

After scouting with my warrior I decided to settle 7 of my initial start (like Theben, it appears). This looses some sweet riverlands, but the cow is very nice. I started with Animal Husbandry, for the cow, and to find the horses, since I'm Egypt. Fishing popped from a goody hut to the west. Always nice. My initial build is a worker, to immidiately work the wheat and cow.



As you can see from the screenie, I went for pottery after AH. I have two floodplains I want to cottage, which will help pay for my rapid expansion. My warrior scouted west first, and is now heading back to scout south and east.

More screenies to follow. But let me first test if the uploading of my screenshots worked.

[Diadem]

ok that worked. On with the story

After my initial worker I went for a 2nd warrior, allowing my capital to grow, and then two settlers. By this time my worker had hooked up cows and wheat, so those settlers went fast.

There is stone to the south, and my scouting warrior discovered some nice land below that. I want that stone, and I want the space before Cyrus, who is south, takes it, so I put my second city there. Not a very good spot, but strategic. And that stone will come in very useful for the Great Wall. So here is my second city site.



Since I needed masonry for the stone, I thought I might as well grab Judaism. This delays bronze working, but there aren't too many forests to cut anyway.

To the east I had found a very sweet spot with corn, cows and two jungle diamonds. It's far away, close the the AI, but it's just too tempting to ignore. Especially with the creative trait bonus. So lo and behold: My third city.



As an added bonus, I found Judaism a few turns later, in this sweet city. Can you say Wall Street?



In the meantime my capital a quick warrior for self-defence, and is now working on the Great Wall. My two expansions are working on workers of their own.

[Diadem]

My capital finishes the Great Wall.



Now it's time for a second round of expansion. So after the Great Wall I start with another settler in my capital. In the meantime my second city has finished its worker, and after 2 quick warriors it is now working on a settler. It is still size one, but the only half-decent tile to work is the stone anyway, so no need for growth, for now.



Bronze Working reveals copper 77 of Heliopolis, and another copper between this one and my capital. The latter one will take a long time before it is within my cultural boundaries, the first one should take no time at all. Heliopolis founded Judaism so is already on 7 culture / turn. Time to send some workers over.



Bronze Working also allows slavery (I switch to Organized Religion as well, Heliopolis will want to build missionaries). I slave the settler in my capital for two pop and start chopping a forest to assist Memphis.

I send the settler from my capital south, to claim some horses close to Cyrus' border. I immidiately start on another one, slaving it as well for 2 pop. In a few turns I brought my capital down from size 6 to size 2, ruining my economy. But I got two settlers



I scouted east of my capital quite late. I almost missed some very sweet expansion ground. Lucky I made all those settlers. My capital continues on stonehenge. Perhaps a strange choice, since I am creative. But it's still GPPs, culture, and 3 culture / turn is more than two. Besides I don't want Cyrus stealing it and pushing on my borders! Anyway with stone it goes fast.



Elephantine is founded in 1360 BC. Stupid Cyrus planted Susa 1 turn before I planted my city. Aargh. I had hoped to be there before him. Not all is lost though, my borders should push harder. He founded Hinduism, so he will probably be a foe anyway. Might as well push his borders until he really hates me



Two turns later comes Alexandria. My fifth city, on a really sweet spot. Coastal too, that was about time.

As you can see I again start with a worker in my new cities. I think this is almost always the best choice, unless you're in a hurry for military. Workers are really important. Especially with all that jungle I'm gonna have to chop (oh, that reminds me. I went for IW after BW, to chop jungles. That's really needed, looking at my cities).



Qin Shi Huang wants to trade. This scares me a bit, since that means he's far ahead in techs. Still it's a good trade, and I'm not worried about his techlead, he's far away. And my tech is understandably slowed because of all my expansion.



The very same turn I finish stonehenge, and continue on the pyramids. I think I usually build way too many wonders in my games, but ah well. I like them. And I got stone.



After its worker Heliopolis started on a missionary, to spread the faith. My capital could use the happiness! And I'm planning on making Judaism the principle faith in the world, this game. So we'll keep building missionaries for now.



The settler from Memphis is finally finished, and Pi-Ramesses is founded in 900 BC. My 6th city, and a good spot. This is either the other coast of the continent, or a very big lake, I don't know which. But it seemed nice to have a city here anyway, with seafood and bananas.

You can also see a missionary heading towards Elephantine. Susa is pushing back and re-conquered the horse, which can not be allowed.



My empire so far. Six cities spread quite far apart. This aggressive expansion has given me a lot of land. My neighbours won't be too pleased with me, but **** them

The x's are where I want more cities. The east one I will settle quite soon, since it's a very good spot which might otherwise be stolen by Justinian. The west one is more a filler-city, so I can take my time with that one.

I think I'm in very good shape. I have enough land, my tech is a bit behind but nothing drastic. I got 2 wonders with a third on the way. I have enough workers.

My military is hopeless, I have 5 warriors to defend 6 cities. And I haven't even invented archery yet. Heliopolis has already connected its copper though, and in a few turns I will have all my cities connected with a trade network. I will start a military buildup then.



My tech so far. Iron Working will soon be done. Priesthood is planned next, for temples and The Oracle. I'm not sure if I can get it, but it never hurts to try. If I do manage to get to Oracle I will take Code of Laws, for those all important courthouses.

I considered taking Priesthood before Iron Working. Maybe that would have been better. But IW will be really useful in chopping all those jungles (4 of my 6 cities are surrounded by them). Elephantine has 2 jungle diamonds for example.

All in all a good start.

[NFIH]

Originally posted by Theben

http://www.apolyton.net/upload/view/1272_AtticaBlueBC-1240.CivBeyondSwordSave

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=1272_AtticaBlueAD-0325.CivBeyondSwordSave

The 1st is in late BC and gives a good idea of how I settled. The 2nd is where I stopped playing.

I had a look at both. Interesting. I tried following a path much like yours (although building less wonders and more military) but around 600 AD was still attacked by two other civs anyway.

I suspect that if you continued your game you would find much the same would happen.

I've subsequently played it over and over, expanding to five cities and being No. 1, but it always ends in multiple assaults from multiple directions, and from friend and foe alike. It's pretty frustrating.

[NFIH]

Diadem, if you are not soon rushed and crushed by either Suleiman, Alexander or Justinian, I'll be extremely surprised. You just don't have enough military, IMO.

[Seedle]

Wow, I'm with NFIH on this one. I've tried it twice so far. The first game expanded into similar locations as Theben and started building up for war with Justinian, prioritizing construction for cats. He declared as I was building up, but I easily fended him off. Bribed my religious buddy Alexander into the war. Justinian somehow manages to have twice as many units as I do, but superior play and catapults mean I win, slowly. Idiot Alexander decides to declare on Cyrus, while never helping nor making peace with Justinian. Play continues, my war keeps my economy stunted and the war weariness adds up. Managed to survive until 1380 B.C. near the top in tech but slowly losing on the power and score graphs. Never did beat Justinian, even though I killed 4 units for every one I lost. Beset by war by 4 civs, having an ally who is losing to Cyrus, slowly losing my tech lead, and with a stack of cats trying to weaken longbows (I had trebs available, I just didn't have time to build a stack of them), I decide to try again.
Try Diadems rapid expansion approach. Sulieman attacks with a 6 unit stack after my fourth city. And I had axes (just not enough) which Diadem doesn't. I really, really, really don't understand why the AI isn't raping Diadem.

I do have a question though. What on earth does the AI do with it's hammers when aggressive AI isn't on? I would expect that since the AI is spending more hammers on units, it's infrastructure would suffer and it would be slower to tech and expand and such with aggressive AI. This doesn't seem to be the case. So if the AI builds the same infrastructure regardless of AI setting, but doesn't build extra units with normal AI, where are the hammers going? Similarly, where is the commerce that isn't spent on unit upkeep going on normal AI?

[Theben]

Originally posted by NFIH
I had a look at both. Interesting. I tried following a path much like yours (although building less wonders and more military) but around 600 AD was still attacked by two other civs anyway.

I suspect that if you continued your game you would find much the same would happen.

I've subsequently played it over and over, expanding to five cities and being No. 1, but it always ends in multiple assaults from multiple directions, and from friend and foe alike. It's pretty frustrating.

Personally I'm not too worried about an AI assault at noble level. Multiple assaults might make it interesting.

Maybe I'll play it out, just to see what happens.

btw, military units are just part of the equation. If your power graph says you're tough, the AI might still leave you alone.

[Seedle]

Originally posted by Theben


Personally I'm not too worried about an AI assault at noble level. Multiple assaults might make it interesting.

Maybe I'll play it out, just to see what happens.

btw, military units are just part of the equation. If your power graph says you're tough, the AI might still leave you alone.

I can't believe you haven't been gang raped already this game. The AI has been gang raping me. I'll have to look at your last save again.

Anyway, third times a charm. Didn't found Judaism this game, so Justinian was my best friend, not my worst enemy.
Been at war with Cyrus the whole game, you'll notice I just now have gotten somewhere. Once again, the AI outbuilt me 3 or 4 to 1 on units and still managed to keep pace in tech, even though I was pillaging all his improvements. Whatever. I have the tech lead and am currently, though assuredly briefly, the only one with rifling. This one's going to the wire, but I think I've got it. Oh, and I've already built the heroic epic, but I think Persepolis may get the Iron Works.

[Diadem]

The AI never starts wars the first couple of thousand years. So you don't need military that period. And they usually won't attack you unless you're really low in power or hate you. Though I must admit I have never tried aggressive AI, so I don't know exactly what it changes. But I think the first few thousand years of peace at least are the same.

Anyway, in my game I'm stretching things a bit. It's time I started building up military. Worse is that most of my cities are size 1 so I can't slave effectively. So I'm playing it a bit dangerously. On the other hand none of my neighbours are the warmongering type.

Anyway I will have military soon. I will start building up military in a few turns (after my cities are done with their workers).

Anyway I'm not worried about an attack from the west, since Heliopolis is big enough to slave units, and has large cultural borders. The east is unlikely since Justinian is still quite far away. If he does attack I might loose Alexandria. That'll suck. But I'll get it back soon enough. Cyrus is probably most dangerous. If he attacks Elephantine is dead. But while he takes it I can reinforce Memphis, so that should be the only city I loose.

But anyway, I think i'll still have time to build up a military before attacks come. My power is actually quite decent.

[Diadem]

I played an OCC game on emperor the other day, where I was next to Montezuma without copper, iron or horse. And since it's OCC I have a pretty fixed techline which doesn't include archery.

That became really interesting when he declared. But I still fended him off (I quickly traded for archery, and my city had enough production for 1 archer every turn. By the time he started bringing in elephants I had muskets).

[Theben]

But anyway, do you like to say anyway a lot?

seedle you've borken the thread.

[Diadem]

Originally posted by Theben
But anyway, do you like to say anyway a lot?

No, I never say that :P

Anyway, I'll continue this game tonight (European time). We'll see what happens

[Seedle]

Originally posted by Theben
But anyway, do you like to say anyway a lot?

seedle you've borken the thread.

What did I do to bork the thread?