Carry on or fold? (Game save attachment inside)

[Theben]

Pictures are too big for standard monitors

[Addled Platypus]

hey Diadem ....silly question

you plan that far in advanced ?

it was 2120 BC and your planing for wall street

[Diadem]

I continued my game. Will post a detailled DAR tomorrow, but for now I can say that I met no problems. I didn't get attacked and easily completed a decent military buildup. My cities are now well defended, and really starting to look good with most of the land improved.

[Diadem]

Originally posted by Addled Platypus
hey Diadem ....silly question

you plan that far in advanced ?

it was 2120 BC and your planing for wall street

I don't meticulously plan everything in advance. But when I build cities, I always try to look at what role that city will play in the future. Will it be a production centre, a commerce centre, or will it specialize in producing GPPs.

And the question of national wonders always pops up as well then. I don't exactly plan it, but when I found a city on a good location thoughts like "Oh, this site looks nice for the Ironworks" or "This would be a nice Oxford city" always cross my mind.

Cities that found religions are always strong candidates for Wallstreet. When it's your main religion, and the city is on a strong commercial site, wallstreet almost becomes a no-brainer.

Heliopolis has only a few river tiles, which is a shame. But two gems is really nice. And those three hills are exactly enough to give it a decent production without taking away too much cottage-space.

But who knows. Maybe an even better candidate comes along. Memphis also looks great, commercially. And you never know what treasures the AI may give you.

[Seedle]

Originally posted by Theben
Pictures are too big for standard monitors

Hmm, my monitor is standard and they fit fine. I can't do anything today, but I'll see about changing them tomorrow.

@Diadem: You got lucky. Or something. The AI routinely attacked me by the last turn in your screenshots. And I had a larger and more advanced military than you. Why the hell they left you alone I have no clue.

[Diadem]

@Diadem: You got lucky. Or something. The AI routinely attacked me by the last turn in your screenshots. And I had a larger and more advanced military than you. Why the hell they left you alone I have no clue.

I don't know exactly what you are doing, so I can't say exactly what you are doing wrong.

But luck, it is not. I can win on immortal, I don't think I need luck for a noble win

Can you tell me when the AI attacks you? Your screenshots, and your first save game, are all after 1000 AD. That'd 2000 years later than where I ended my DAR. A big time difference.

And try for yourself what I'm doing. I made my DAR very detailed on purpose, so you can do what I did, if you want.

[Krill]

When I played through I got attacked around turn 80, but I was at that time #1 in power, and had been quite high in power for most of the game having been raising all the weakly defended AI cities around me for fun and gold...so maybe the AI just hated me, but it did attack me.

[Theben]

Yeah, I got attacked shortly after my last save by the Greeks, too bad for him. I think I lost 3 units to his 30, plus took Corinth. Then Hannibal and Justinian attacked me and managed to retake Constantinople for a few turns. I bribed Brennus to fight Alex while I shifted to the East, and converted the Ottomans to my religion. Now I have 2 large armies barrelling down thru Byzantine lands. I figure I'll have a couple of vassals or a lot of empty space to colonize soon.

[NFIH]

Well, I tried the game again and decided to go "fortress" style and aim for a culture win. By "fortress" I mean building a military big enough to defend my cities against any SoD. I would then cottage up my land, found and spread religion and use my income to maintain tech parity if not the lead.

I decided to go this route because warmongering simply won't do it on this map. What happens is it simply takes far too long to wipe out/significantly dent any one civ and in that time, your economy takes such a pounding that you're open to assault from every other--now more advanced--civ anyway.

I tried to expand as quickly as possible. This means my capital built: worker=>settler=>settler=>settler. I went straight for bronze working so I could chop as necessary.

The first two settlers get out all right. The first one settles immediately south of the capital to claim a bunch of jungled grassland and a food special. This will be a commerce city. The second settler founds the third city to the east of the second one. Its combination of hills, a cow special and river tiles make it a military city for me.

Remember the third settler in my build? I can't build him right away. Why? Because I have to detour to build archers for defence. Why's that? Because, like clockwork in every game on this map, this is precisely when the barbs show up and always from the same two places. The first barb comes at my capital from the northwest in the direction of the cow special. The second barb comes from the southwest in the direction of the wheat special (somehow deciding to go right through the Ethiopian and Ottoman territory to go after me).

I never have any choice but to build a quick defensive unit or two. I do this and then get out the third settler, which settles northeast of the capital to take the gold and copper specials. However, it is this build delay to defend against barbs that limits me to an opening total of four cities. All the other land is now taken by enemy civs and I'm surrounded.

However, this time I'm playing defensively as mentioned and am prepared for this style. I've got two military cities and two commerce cities. I build plenty of workers and improve land like mad. I hardly ever slave so that the populations can grow at full tilt. It works well and I have a tech and points lead with a strong, diversified military (though I lack horses). I've even founded three religions by the time I quit and am spreading one of them (Judaism) as liberally as I can.

And then the usual happens: The Ottomans' Suleiman DoWs on me on my western border. Fine. I not only repel his invasion but destroy one of his cities. I force him to sue for peace and give me a tech as well (I forget which). I redistribute my military to the four cities to prepare for another assault.

My forces are still in transit when that **** Justinian DoWs on me on my eastern border. I route the bulk of my troops there to face him. He won't be able to take me--I can see that. Unless, of course, someone else DoWs on me in the middle of the battle.

Gee, guess what happens?

Suleiman again DoWs on me. But remember how I said I spread my religion? Suleiman shared Judaism with me. Justinian was Buddhist. I was at "pleased" status with two other civs and "friendly" with one. Surely I can get one or two of these guys to help me out, right?

Wrong.

Not only can I not get them to help, but I'm not even given the option to make an offer! Everything is redded out. If I can't even talk to civs with whom I'm pleased and friendly, what use is the diplomacy option?

I'll restart, give it one last shot and then I'm done. I'll play a new map/settings or take a long break and go play Company of Heroes.

[NFIH]

Originally posted by Theben
Yeah, I got attacked shortly after my last save by the Greeks, too bad for him. I think I lost 3 units to his 30, plus took Corinth. Then Hannibal and Justinian attacked me and managed to retake Constantinople for a few turns.

Can you detail for me exactly (or roughly, if memory is all you have to go on) what size and mix of troops you used to attack, how many cities you had, how many were building military and what game date it was?

I bribed Brennus to fight Alex while I shifted to the East, and converted the Ottomans to my religion.

What did you give to Brennus to get the DoW?

How did you convert the Ottomans to your religion? (In my current game on this map, the Ottomans are also the same religion as me and they DoWed on me anyway.)

Now I have 2 large armies barrelling down thru Byzantine lands. I figure I'll have a couple of vassals or a lot of empty space to colonize soon.

Exactly how large are these armies? What is the unit mix?

[Seedle]

Originally posted by Diadem


I don't know exactly what you are doing, so I can't say exactly what you are doing wrong.

But luck, it is not. I can win on immortal, I don't think I need luck for a noble win

Can you tell me when the AI attacks you? Your screenshots, and your first save game, are all after 1000 AD. That'd 2000 years later than where I ended my DAR. A big time difference.

And try for yourself what I'm doing. I made my DAR very detailed on purpose, so you can do what I did, if you want.

The AI attacked me all the time, starting about turn 80 or so. I didn't say you are lucky because you won, or could beat the AI, I said you are lucky because you weren't attacked early, which based on everyone else's comments in this thread, makes no sense. The fact that you handled the AI after that doesn't bother me, just the fact that it let you defend 6 cities with 5 warriors.

Also, I specifically did try what you are doing, but with more military, and got attacked.

[Diadem]

Originally posted by Seedle

The AI attacked me all the time, starting about turn 80 or so. I didn't say you are lucky because you won, or could beat the AI, I said you are lucky because you weren't attacked early, which based on everyone else's comments in this thread, makes no sense. The fact that you handled the AI after that doesn't bother me, just the fact that it let you defend 6 cities with 5 warriors.

Also, I specifically did try what you are doing, but with more military, and got attacked.

Yes, turn 80 could be about right. My dar ends at turn 79. Like I said, I'm comming close to the point where the AI might start to attack. But I also started my military buildup quite soon after the end of my first DAR. Plus I converted my western neighbours to Judaism, making them far less likely to attack.

Try doing what I did. Not with extra military, with the same military. See what happens. Building extra military takes time. You'll be a great many turns slower as a result!

[Diadem]

Just for the fun of it I opened the worldbuilder on my 900BC save (the end of my first DAR).

The AI doesn't have anything to attack me with. Only Suleiman has anything resembling an army, but he's almost as peace-loving as ghandi. And if he does attack, those two axes won't impress me much.

Justinian and Cyrus still haven't hooked up their strategic resources, and Zara Yaqob doesn't have any to begin with. They can't attack me.

No, it looks like I'm quite safe. And I really wonder how others managed to get attacked on this map.

[The Priest]

Very interesting discussion.

My approach has always been the same as diadem. Don't bother with military in the first few thousand years - five warriors for six cities is about my norm too, and it works fine (except for barbs, particularly on raging, if you are not snug up to AI borders or have the wall - though you can also suppress barbs with a few well placed scouts).

I have always though that the general conversation here doesn't take into account the huge difference between MP and SP. I can well believe that in MP you need military early, but you simply don't in SP and waste so much resource by having it (and most importantly waste the chance to expand and grab good sites). The AI does not think about building military until there is no space left for it to expand, so it is very unlikely to attack until that point. You can see when that point is coming - when there is no space to expand - and it is then you need to start building military.

What is interesting here though is why the folks who are building military early are being attacked. The general wisdom is 'you need to be high up on the power graph to avoid being attacked', but here the low power graph folks are safe , the high power graph folks get attacked.

Why? I guess the point is that you are starting off an arms race. If you start building lots of military and shooting off on the power graph, your neighbours get worried and start building military themselves. They then either say 'well we have got all these soliders around lets use them' or 'he is still looking powerful lets have a pre-emptive strike'.

So my advice is chill, be peaceful, build your cities, and the AI will do the same, just spot for the point there is no more room to expand and be ready.

[NFIH]

Originally posted by The Priest


Why? I guess the point is that you are starting off an arms race. If you start building lots of military and shooting off on the power graph, your neighbours get worried and start building military themselves. They then either say 'well we have got all these soliders around lets use them' or 'he is still looking powerful lets have a pre-emptive strike'.

So my advice is chill, be peaceful, build your cities, and the AI will do the same, just spot for the point there is no more room to expand and be ready.

Are you sure about that? In the particular game we're discussing here, the room for expansion ends by around turn 55, IIRC. This means there is hardly any window for a peaceful buildup. I also know from playing this one many, many times now, that some of the other nearby civs are very constrained--Alexander and Justinian in particular. If you don't build a military (as in, already have one ready), they will come at you much earlier than you might expect.

Also, the two immediate neighbours--Suleiman on the west and Justinian on the east--both have the imperialistic trait in this game. So yeah, early war is pretty much a given.

That said, you've given me something to think about and maybe I'll give it a whirl just for kicks.